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Postby bradleyshanrock-solberg » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am

I'm also reading Louise's information, as it's been about 20 years since I studied the H2O crystal structure. Water is quite unusual in how it behaves compared to other materials.

I've got nothing to add at this time, beyond encouraging you to keep going.
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Re: Science Experiment - Suggested Websites

Postby Louise » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:46 am

Michael wrote:I am reviewing the information suggested by Louise. Wow - this is really complex material.

Any other suggestions - please let me know.

Thank you again.....Michael


Yes, this is complicated! If you don't understand something, please ask us questions. This is a really nice project because it demonstrates several effects clearly, and there is a lot of data out there that you can reference. Some of the material is written at a pretty advanced level (like the page on the different types of ice), and you probably don't need to understand every detail, but it is very interesting to think about all the different types of ice that can be made. ("I'd like my pepsi served with ice-eleven, please." :D )

If you have trouble understanding how to read the 'phase diagrams' please let me know. These diagrams help you predict exactly what material you have in your mixture at certain conditions.

Water is really interesting, because even pure water forms many different kinds of ice depending on the temperature and the pressure. Even liquid water is very complicated, and many research groups still study plain water so they can understand hydrogen bonds and how they change with time.


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Postby ChrisG » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:15 pm

Hi Micheal,
In addition to Louise's excellent info and advice, make sure to follow up on Paul Descarli's suggestion in the other thread to read about the freezing of sea water. That info should be relatively simple to understand, and the processes are very relevant to your experimental results. For example, as saline water freezes, it fractionates so that the initial ice formed has a lower salt content than the surrounding water. You should be able to find many references to this online. Also, solid ice expands at different rates depending on the salt concentration. These coefficients of expansion are also available online.

There may be other factors aside from salinity that could affect your results. For example, did both types of ice (saline and fresh water) appear equally cloudy? If it is cloudy, do you see tiny bubbles in the ice? Formation of air bubbles in freezing water affects the final volume of ice, and you might see some differences in air content between the saline versus fresh water ice, or in the different layers of ice in the saline trials.

Great experiment! Keep up the good work.
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Science Experiment Update

Postby Michael » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:31 pm

Hello. Hope everyone is doing well especially with the holidays quickly approaching.

I've been reviewing the suggested material from Louise and feel I have a much better understanding. As a result, I need to correct
my prior trial results that were done at -70 degrees celsius. When I took the cans out of the freezer, they were actually "supercooled". They actually froze out of the freezer. I didn't completely understand what was happening. I believe they ended up freezing when they reached the appropriate temperature.

I decided to contact the local lab in my neighborhood and got permission to do another trial using their scientific freezer but this time at -20 degree celsius.

I took Chris' advice and conducted the test this time using balloons.
The fresh water balloon definitely expanded more than the salt water balloon. But, what I found interesting was that the salt water was a cloudy color whereas the fresh water was almost crystal clear. In addition, when I observed the salt water I found that the water ice crystals formed in one area, but in the total opposite area of the ice crystals were clusters of salt. You could also see small air bubbles in the fresh water and the ice was completely smooth.

I learned that my hypothesis was correct.

The more "salt" in water, the lower its freezing point. Basically, salt "disrupts" the bonding between the Hydrogen atoms and Oxygen atom. As a result of the disruption between the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms, the salt water solution freezes at a lower temperature and expands less.

Please let me know your thoughts and any other suggestions.

Best regards....MICHAEL
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Project Question: The effect of pressure on the
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Project Due Date: Febuary 2011
Project Status: I am finished with my experiment and analyzing the data

Postby Craig_Bridge » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:15 am

There are some other possibilities that you need to think about. The solubility of a given salt in water is often a function of temperature and typically decreases with temperature (hot water will typically allow more salt to disolve than cold water).

Since you observed clumps of salt crystals in some samples, what might have occurred is that salt precipitated out of solution as the temperature was lowered but before it froze. Similar techniques are often used to seperate out various protiens in biochemistry applications. I maybe wrong, but I seem to recall that "freeze drying" was utilized as a step in commercial separation of insulin from pancreatic cells before people figured out how to DNA splice bacteria to produce insulin.

Ice from pure distilled water is a crystal structure that has a very regular pattern so its optical properties are uniform which translates into transparency.

Frozen salt water has an irregular structure so its optical properties are not uniform which translates into optical scattering which is translates into translucent behavior (cloudy appearance).
-Craig
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Postby bradleyshanrock-solberg » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:44 am

Yes...the salt solution will likely have examples of all of the following

1. essentially pure ice
2. essentially pure salt
3. frozen salt/water solution

The phase diagrams referenced in early links show that if you heat it up and then cool it down (at certain concentrations of salt) you would expect to get all 3 states.

These will be visually different. How much you get of each may well depend on how fast you cool it. The -70 degree freezer will give a different mix than a -20 degree freezer, assuming the samples go in at room temperature.

This technique is used in a lot of metallurgy - steel for example is a mix of iron and carbon, carefully heated and cooled to cause a precise mix of different combinations of iron and steel (crystal structures) in the final product which gives it a desired mix of hardness and toughness. You get a very different result if you heat up your carbon/iron mixture and suddenly cool it in water versus letting it cool down slowly in the air.

You're doing kind of the same thing by using different refrigerator temperatures. The water will go from liquid to solid state faster in the cooler freezer, and that will change the percentage of the three materials you see (probably less pure ice and salt, more mixed salt/ice if you cool quickly vs cool slowly - depends on the phase diagram and the amount of salt in the solution)
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Re: Science Experiment Update

Postby Louise » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:06 pm

Michael wrote:Hello. Hope everyone is doing well especially with the holidays quickly approaching.

I've been reviewing the suggested material from Louise and feel I have a much better understanding. As a result, I need to correct
my prior trial results that were done at -70 degrees celsius. When I took the cans out of the freezer, they were actually "supercooled". They actually froze out of the freezer. I didn't completely understand what was happening. I believe they ended up freezing when they reached the appropriate temperature.

I decided to contact the local lab in my neighborhood and got permission to do another trial using their scientific freezer but this time at -20 degree celsius.

I took Chris' advice and conducted the test this time using balloons.
The fresh water balloon definitely expanded more than the salt water balloon. But, what I found interesting was that the salt water was a cloudy color whereas the fresh water was almost crystal clear. In addition, when I observed the salt water I found that the water ice crystals formed in one area, but in the total opposite area of the ice crystals were clusters of salt. You could also see small air bubbles in the fresh water and the ice was completely smooth.

I learned that my hypothesis was correct.

The more "salt" in water, the lower its freezing point. Basically, salt "disrupts" the bonding between the Hydrogen atoms and Oxygen atom. As a result of the disruption between the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms, the salt water solution freezes at a lower temperature and expands less.

Please let me know your thoughts and any other suggestions.

Best regards....MICHAEL


Michael,
I'm glad to see that things are going well with your experiment. The results with supercooling is really neat! Did you see the control (pure water) do the same thing? (And why didn't you mention this observation before?? This is an important observation!). I hope your experiments with the -20 freezer work well! Looking at the phase diagram though:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/cryo_course/cryo_chap6_1.html

I think you not be able to freeze all samples. If you look at the 0-40% salt part of the phase diagram, it looks like -20 is very near a phase transition between getting a solid of [H2O ice and NaCl*H2O2] and having a mixture of solid (either pure H2O ice or the NaCl hydrate solid) and brine. You should determine the temperature of the freezer very carefully because a few degrees cooler than -20 is a very different result from a few degrees warmer.

I think you need to be careful about how you word your last paragraph. Not all ice that forms is 'disrupted' ice. As the phase diagrams show, some of the ice forms the regular 'pure' water ice, with the normal density and structure. In terms of conclusions, I would probably rely more on the phase diagrams. Hydrogen bonds are important- and they do dictate the type of ice structure you get as well as the properties of the liquids and solutions, but you don't directly observe them. The colligative properties can be understood with out knowing the details of the molecular interaction- you can understand freezing point depression without knowing that a particular solvent does or does not form hydrogen bonds. I would recommend you look at this site again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression

I would also recommend taking photographs of the different types of ice if possible. This would look really cool on your poster board, and would help illustrate the complexity of the ice/water/salt behavoir.

Good luck with the rest of your experiments.

Louise
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Science Experiment

Postby Michael » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:31 pm

Louise had confirmed the following:

"The 6 sided ice crystals build one on another to form sheets of ice. When salt (sodium chloride) is mixed into the water, chlorine ions grab the hydrogen atoms in H2O that interferes with the ice crystal building. It's difficult then for the ice crystals to connect and so they move slower to freeze."


Please clarify if "chlorine ions" in the above quote should read "chloride ions".

Thank you.

Michael
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Project Question: The effect of pressure on the
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Project Due Date: Febuary 2011
Project Status: I am finished with my experiment and analyzing the data

Re: Science Experiment

Postby Louise » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:30 pm

Michael wrote:Louise had confirmed the following:

"The 6 sided ice crystals build one on another to form sheets of ice. When salt (sodium chloride) is mixed into the water, chlorine ions grab the hydrogen atoms in H2O that interferes with the ice crystal building. It's difficult then for the ice crystals to connect and so they move slower to freeze."


Please clarify if "chlorine ions" in the above quote should read "chloride ions".

Thank you.

Michael


I don't think I 'confirmed this'; I actually think this is not the best description of what happens. I think you should write in terms of 'colligative properties', which is why I included a link to colligative properties this quote. Please see my early post to you today.

Chlorine is the element. Chloride is the negatively charged chlorine (-1). Chloride is technically correct, and you should use it. 'chlorine ion' would probably be understood by a chemist to mean chloride (which I am), but is not technically correct. So, if you choose to keep this paragaph in your paper, you should use chloride.

Again, I would recommend re-reading my last post and reviewing colligative properties.

Good luck with your paper!
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Science Experiment

Postby Michael » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:07 am

Hello!

I'm trying to think of a good title for my display board that will catch people's attention.

Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you... Michael
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Project Status: I am finished with my experiment and analyzing the data

SCIENCE EXPERIMENT TITLE

Postby Michael » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:32 pm

Hello again.

Can anyone think of a good title for this experiment?

Does the increase in salinity affect the water’s ability to expand when frozen inside an aluminum can?

I'm starting to put my information together..... Everyone has been so helpful. I couldn't have done this experiment without your direction.

THANK YOU!!!!! MICHAEL
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Postby bradleyshanrock-solberg » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:41 am

You might just try something a bit more general.

"Phase changes and effects on volume in saline solutions at different cooling rates"

Really what you're doing is exploring the phase diagram for salt and water at the liquid/solid boundary. You're doing it in a fun way, showing pressure exerted by volume change in a dramatic fashion, but the meat of your results is in the combination of pure ice, saline ice and salt that emerge from the different treatments.
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Postby Louise » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:51 pm

bradleyshanrock-solberg wrote:You might just try something a bit more general.

"Phase changes and effects on volume in saline solutions at different cooling rates"

Really what you're doing is exploring the phase diagram for salt and water at the liquid/solid boundary. You're doing it in a fun way, showing pressure exerted by volume change in a dramatic fashion, but the meat of your results is in the combination of pure ice, saline ice and salt that emerge from the different treatments.


I really like this suggestion. I haven't posted back about a title, becuase I haven't had any good ideas! :D

I think this is a really good title, and the different cooling rates parts allows you to mention both the -20 and -70 data.

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Project Update

Postby Michael » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:54 am

Hi, Everyone.

I've been sick with the flu / strep throat. What a time to get sick? With the holidays coming and the project being due on January 10th, I'm trying to finalize my project so that I can focus on the actual presentation. Of course, I value your input and look forward to your comments.

I spent alot of time reading the research material that was recommended especially the Solid-Liquid Phase Diagrams suggested by Louise. I feel it finally clicked in and am able to explain it. In brief, when freezing a salt water solution nothing happens until you get down to the eutectic temperature (the temperature which the mixture of salt and water freezes -21.1 degrees C) and it is at that point, that both ice crystals and salt crystals start forming. The end product is that you're left with ice crystals and salt crystals. They're no longer in the solution, they're separate.

So that I'm clearly answering the purpose of my experiment Does the increase in salinity affect the water's ability to expand when it freezes inside an aluminum can, I feel I need to include the following points in very simple terms so that my classmates (8th graders) understand and can follow what I'm saying:

Fresh Water:
When water freezes, it expands because of hydrogen bonding. The water molecules rearrange themselves to form a crystal that takes up more space than of the liquid molecular arrangement. The crystal consitsts of molecules in a very precise, repeating array, hexagonal (6 sided) structure like a snowflake. (Will include a great picture of this)

Salt Water:
When salt water freezes, the expansion is less because: As you add salt to water, the salt slows down the molecules from expanding and freezing. The salt interferes with the bonding between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms found in water making it difficult for them to bond. Salt water form cubic crystals (with 4 sides) whereas ice (fresh water) is hexagonal (with 6 sides).

After conducting the experiment, I concluded that my hypothesis was correct! As the salinity of water increases, the expansion decreases.

This is specifically shown in my experiment when the can with 0g of salt expanded 2 cm (in diameter), the can with 5g of salt expanded 1 ½ cm (in diameter) and the can with 10g of salt expanded 1 cm (in diameter) .

I learned that the reason for this is because the salt (NaCl) in the water interferes with the bonding between the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms when freezing, causing the ice to expand less and freeze at a slower pace. As the water freezes, the dissolved salt lowers the freezing point of the water to less than 0°C.

Taken together, my experiment proves that the increase in salinity does affect and decrease the expansion of the water when frozen.


This project can apply to real life in helping to determine the causes of erosion:

 The expansion of ice is responsible for much of the erosion that makes our soil. During the winter, water that has found its way into cracks in rocks freezes. As the water freezes, it expands, and the cracks are forced open and enlarged by the ice. This turns big rocks into little rocks and makes mountains into molehills.

 Erosion can occur when water freezes and glaciers are eroding the surface of the earth.


Appreciate your thoughts of any changes or if I can go forward with the above.

All the best....Michael
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Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:08 am
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Project Question: The effect of pressure on the
structure and density of liquid water: a computational study
Project Due Date: Febuary 2011
Project Status: I am finished with my experiment and analyzing the data

Re: Project Update

Postby Louise » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:15 am

Michael wrote:Hi, Everyone.

I've been sick with the flu / strep throat. What a time to get sick? With the holidays coming and the project being due on January 10th, I'm trying to finalize my project so that I can focus on the actual presentation. Of course, I value your input and look forward to your comments.

I spent alot of time reading the research material that was recommended especially the Solid-Liquid Phase Diagrams suggested by Louise. I feel it finally clicked in and am able to explain it. In brief, when freezing a salt water solution nothing happens until you get down to the eutectic temperature (the temperature which the mixture of salt and water freezes -21.1 degrees C) and it is at that point, that both ice crystals and salt crystals start forming. The end product is that you're left with ice crystals and salt crystals. They're no longer in the solution, they're separate.

So that I'm clearly answering the purpose of my experiment Does the increase in salinity affect the water's ability to expand when it freezes inside an aluminum can, I feel I need to include the following points in very simple terms so that my classmates (8th graders) understand and can follow what I'm saying:

Fresh Water:
When water freezes, it expands because of hydrogen bonding. The water molecules rearrange themselves to form a crystal that takes up more space than of the liquid molecular arrangement. The crystal consitsts of molecules in a very precise, repeating array, hexagonal (6 sided) structure like a snowflake. (Will include a great picture of this)

Salt Water:
When salt water freezes, the expansion is less because: As you add salt to water, the salt slows down the molecules from expanding and freezing. The salt interferes with the bonding between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms found in water making it difficult for them to bond. Salt water form cubic crystals (with 4 sides) whereas ice (fresh water) is hexagonal (with 6 sides).

After conducting the experiment, I concluded that my hypothesis was correct! As the salinity of water increases, the expansion decreases.

This is specifically shown in my experiment when the can with 0g of salt expanded 2 cm (in diameter), the can with 5g of salt expanded 1 ½ cm (in diameter) and the can with 10g of salt expanded 1 cm (in diameter) .

I learned that the reason for this is because the salt (NaCl) in the water interferes with the bonding between the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms when freezing, causing the ice to expand less and freeze at a slower pace. As the water freezes, the dissolved salt lowers the freezing point of the water to less than 0°C.

Taken together, my experiment proves that the increase in salinity does affect and decrease the expansion of the water when frozen.


This project can apply to real life in helping to determine the causes of erosion:

 The expansion of ice is responsible for much of the erosion that makes our soil. During the winter, water that has found its way into cracks in rocks freezes. As the water freezes, it expands, and the cracks are forced open and enlarged by the ice. This turns big rocks into little rocks and makes mountains into molehills.

 Erosion can occur when water freezes and glaciers are eroding the surface of the earth.


Appreciate your thoughts of any changes or if I can go forward with the above.

All the best....Michael


Sorry to hear that you were sick. I'm glad the phase diagrams "clicked"! I think your explanation of the phase diagram can also be included in your report and perhaps a copy of it included in your display with either dots or lines representing your experimental trials (show what part of the phase diagrams you studied). Remember too, your report and presentation are not just for your classmates, but also teachers and judges. I don't think you should simplify too much just because your classmates are in the 8th grade; your classmates can learn a lot from what you present.

I like your paragraph about erosion. It is nice that you are thinking about the larger picture.

Lastly, did you see the different types of crystals? Could you tell that you were forming cubic rather than hexagonal? I'm not sure you could see specific structures by eye, but did you see differences in the surfaces or shapes? (I know some looked cloudy, but that is for a different reason.)

One last, tiny detail... It is usual to put a space between the number and the unit. Thus '5 g' and not '5g'.

Louise
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