tmd523
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:33 pm

who has the closest fingerprints to mine my mother, father,

Postby tmd523 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:56 pm

Im having a real hard time on a hypothesis and variables (independent,dependant and with constants? I'm not sure if there is anyway to measure this in metric or in time I'm not sure if anyone is good at this could you please help me ?? :roll:
Tiffany :)

SGelman
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Postby SGelman » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:41 pm

Hi Tiffany,

Basically your hypothesis is just what you predict your results will be. Based on your knowledge of science, make an educated guess about how things will turn out. For your variables, think about what will remain constant and unaffected by other factors [independent variable] and what you don't know; what will be affected by the independent variable [dependent variable]. Check out the Science Fair Project Guide on this site and see if that helps.

Here's another site that might be useful:
http://www.niles-hs.k12.il.us/jacnau/IJ ... pes%20More?

I'm not sure about what you mean on measuring in metric or time...I don't think time will affect your experiment at all. Since the fingerprints are small, metric might also be difficult, but you can always magnify the prints and highlight similarities to show how you obtain your results.


Susan

tmd523
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:33 pm

? has the closes fingerprints to mine my mother or father

Postby tmd523 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:31 am

That sight was very helpful as to the experiement but I'm very confused as to what the variables should be I need to figure then out before I do the experiment but I did like the information on that site what should I do for a variable the inndependant is the question I ve asked to begin with right then the variable should be me enlarging them is that going to count as measuring I need to measure with this science project I'm just not sure what to measure any ideas how to make my board look like a million dollars ? I need to get a good grade it's not like I'm not trying this is hard but challenging which is good Thanks Susan any ideas will be greatly appreciated Thanks Tiffany
Tiffany :)

wildfirefox
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Postby wildfirefox » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:31 am

Tiffany:

Independent variable is what you will be changing. For example, since your finger prints is imprinted on your finger tips since you were born, there's no way you can change your genetics to alter your finger prints as you get older. But, what happen if you're being exposed to contaminants, or some kind of external influences. For example, acids, surgeries, accidents, genetic disorder during the time the fetus is inside the mother's womb, or many many other possibilities.

Dependent variables is what you observe that may or may not change. What if you put acid on your finger tips, but nothing change (BUT DON'T DO THIS ON YOUR SKIN OR ANYONE ELSE!!! :roll: ) What happen those who have surgeries on their fingers, such as plastic surgery for finger repairs or skin grafting? How about the variety of genetic disorders that effect the fetus development, especially on the skin?

This will be a project that you will remember for quite some time. It's quite unique.
Those who can see that do not exist are geniuses. Those who can see what exists are brilliant. Those cannot see what exists are ignorant.
- Lao Tsu

geoffbruton
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Postby geoffbruton » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:04 am

Hi Tiffany,

This sounds like an awesome science fair project! There are a couple of things that you should consider:

1. When acquiring fingerprints from the families in your study, are you planning on studying all ten fingerprints, or perhaps just comparing say, the right index fingers? Why?

2. Are you planning on just looking for pattern types or the degree of similarity in the minutiae? What has your background research shown on the number of different types of patterns and the variability / uniqueness of fingerprints?

3. Do you know any identical twins? This would be an excellent study if you could incorporate it into your project. Identical twins share the same DNA - but have different fingerprints! This has all to do with the formation of the friction ridge pattern during the fetus' time in the womb. There have been some tremendous studies on this subject, so please see what you can find.

All in all, this sounds like a great project - good luck!
Geoff.
Geoff Bruton
Firearm & Toolmark Section
Ventura County Sheriff's Department
Forensic Sciences Laboratory

tmd523
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:33 pm

fingerprints

Postby tmd523 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:56 pm

wildfirefox wrote:Tiffany:

So my Dad had half of his finger cut off could that be used as change ??? in my variable? and input i s greatly appreciated :oops:








Independent variable is what you will be changing. For example, since your finger prints is imprinted on your finger tips since you were born, there's no way you can change your genetics to alter your finger prints as you get older. But, what happen if you're being exposed to contaminants, or some kind of external influences. For example, acids, surgeries, accidents, genetic disorder during the time the fetus is inside the mother's womb, or many many other possibilities.

Dependent variables is what you observe that may or may not change. What if you put acid on your finger tips, but nothing change (BUT DON'T DO THIS ON YOUR SKIN OR ANYONE ELSE!!! :roll: ) What happen those who have surgeries on their fingers, such as plastic surgery for finger repairs or skin grafting? How about the variety of genetic disorders that effect the fetus development, especially on the skin?

This will be a project that you will remember for quite some time. It's quite unique.
Tiffany :)

wildfirefox
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Re: fingerprints

Postby wildfirefox » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:00 pm

tmd523 wrote:
So my Dad had half of his finger cut off could that be used as change ??? in my variable? and input i s greatly appreciated :oops:


Errr...that would be factor rather than variable. If his finger is chopped off, I don't think you have to worry about finger prints any more :lol: . If it's something more like when you're exposed to chemical, and the chemical altered your finger prints, due to continually skin peeling, or chemical burn, heat burn, scars, laceration, or some kind of skin damage that alter the finger prints.
Those who can see that do not exist are geniuses. Those who can see what exists are brilliant. Those cannot see what exists are ignorant.
- Lao Tsu

tmd523
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:33 pm

Re: fingerprints

Postby tmd523 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:06 pm

wildfirefox wrote:
tmd523 wrote:

So what in gods name am I going to do for the whole change part I'm so confused that and the measure part this is my 1st science fair report and I guess I didn't think this one thru thouroughly huh help


So my Dad had half of his finger cut off could that be used as change ??? in my variable? and input i s greatly appreciated :oops:


Errr...that would be factor rather than variable. If his finger is chopped off, I don't think you have to worry about finger prints any more :lol: . If it's something more like when you're exposed to chemical, and the chemical altered your finger prints, due to continually skin peeling, or chemical burn, heat burn, scars, laceration, or some kind of skin damage that alter the finger prints.
Tiffany :)

wildfirefox
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Postby wildfirefox » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:22 pm

Tiffany, let's approach this a bit more clearly. Let's take you as a guinea pig for the experimentation example:

1. Finger prints don't change drastically over time. When you're born, you're given a set of finger prints that remain the same from your birth, to your death. The changes are so little that it doesn't even considered to be important. With that in mind, we can use that as dependent variable.

2. Now, let's take other things into considerations that may change your finger prints, which is independent variables. For examples:
    a. Continually skin peeling, such as cancer or a skin disease.
    b. Chemical burn if you're working in labs or at chemical companies, or even because of a sickness treatment.
    c. Heat burn from some accident or accidents
    d. Scars from skin diseases, or a person may be inflicting damages on the fingers by touching or grabbing sharp objects
    e. Laceration, because someone has been working at the mills that use a lot of sanding equipment, or rough materials.
    f. Some kind of skin disease that causes damages, which may alter the shape-size of the finger tips, and skin texture that ultimately change the finger prints.


3. Then how about control? Control would be the period of time between your birth, and the time that you're exposed to something that change your finger prints. If you're using a large amount of people, compare those who don't have issues that change their finger prints, to those who have issues that result in their fingers print being altered.

Does that clear things up a bit more?
Those who can see that do not exist are geniuses. Those who can see what exists are brilliant. Those cannot see what exists are ignorant.
- Lao Tsu

wildfirefox
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Postby wildfirefox » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:36 pm

Andddddd...to boost, I knew I forgot something... :roll:

You want to compare your finger prints to the rest of your family. How about extending that a bit further?

1. Compare yourself to your current family. Then to your grand parents, your aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, nieces, etc..

2. How about researching other families. Do the family members have similar finger prints like yours?

3. What about life changing issues? Did your family members, or the other families, suffered from some kind of sickness or skin damages?

There are many ways in approaching this. Chose one, and we'll be more than glad to help you out to the extent of our knowledge.
Those who can see that do not exist are geniuses. Those who can see what exists are brilliant. Those cannot see what exists are ignorant.
- Lao Tsu

geoffbruton
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Postby geoffbruton » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:50 pm

Hi Tiffany,

Hopefully wildfirefox has helped you figure out which of your variables is which!

Fingerprints are a truly fascinating subject, so hopefully you will enjoy doing this science fair project.

The only thing that I would add - and hopefully you will be able to locate in your background research - is that fingerprint formation is 'set' from before you are born. They remain the same until after death and decomposition begins. Even during growth, the 'details' within the fingerprint (and, of course, the overall pattern) never changes. Consider drawing a fingerprint on a balloon. Now, when you blow up the balloon, the lines and their relative position do not change - they simply expand. This is the same thing that happens as we grow - our fingerprints stay the same.

The *only* way fingerprints can change during life is from scarring. I have several scars from a number of different occasions that have altered the fine detail within my fingerprints - but the patterns do not change. So, if you are planning on studying the patterns *only* (which I would recommend) even scars will not change the pattern you observe.

The damage caused by a variety of different factors will not truly change the fingerprint. The different types of "minutiae" (a term you may want to look up) cannot be changed - in that, for example, if a ridge splits into two (called a bifurcation), no amount of damage is going to change it into, say, a ridge ending. And certainly no amount of damage can change a whorl into a loop.

Historically, some criminals have attempted to remove or alter their fingerprints - either by corrosive chemicals, such as acids, or by skin grafts. Since the layer of the skin from which fingerprints are formed is relatively deep, the damage caused by the action of a corrosive chemical very often simply causes a great deal of damage (and pain!), and ultimately, the original fingerprints resurface. The use of skin grafts, whilst theoretically being able to 'change' the characteristics, often produces such horrendous (and painful!) scars, that the 'trick' is easily found out.

The databases that are searched when a suspects' fingerprints are entered contains millions of prints for comparison. The list of scarred fingerprints, however, is relatively small - and are very readily identifiable since they are so unique. The reason why these databases are so useful is because the fingerprints (and scarred areas) do not change - and the relative positions of the detail within the fingerprints is readily recordable, and identifiable.

Like I said, this is a fascinating subject, so I sincerely hope that you decide to stick with it. Expanding your project to include as many different family groups is a great idea, and I can't wait to see your results.

Good luck!
Geoff.
Geoff Bruton

Firearm & Toolmark Section

Ventura County Sheriff's Department

Forensic Sciences Laboratory

tmd523
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:33 pm

fingerprints closest to mine exp.. mom & dad sister

Postby tmd523 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:12 pm

Actually it does a bit say my mom is a cosmetologist who uses alot of chemicals my dad delivers packages and my grandparrents one was a truck driver so I may have some luck with my mom but that might be it Im trying to think of the experiment itself don't I have tgo perform it 3 times or is that not true for a science fair project ??? my constant would be the prints themselves because they don't change ? help??[




quote="wildfirefox"]Tiffany, let's approach this a bit more clearly. Let's take you as a guinea pig for the experimentation example:

1. Finger prints don't change drastically over time. When you're born, you're given a set of finger prints that remain the same from your birth, to your death. The changes are so little that it doesn't even considered to be important. With that in mind, we can use that as dependent variable.

2. Now, let's take other things into considerations that may change your finger prints, which is independent variables. For examples:
    a. Continually skin peeling, such as cancer or a skin disease.
    b. Chemical burn if you're working in labs or at chemical companies, or even because of a sickness treatment.
    c. Heat burn from some accident or accidents
    d. Scars from skin diseases, or a person may be inflicting damages on the fingers by touching or grabbing sharp objects
    e. Laceration, because someone has been working at the mills that use a lot of sanding equipment, or rough materials.
    f. Some kind of skin disease that causes damages, which may alter the shape-size of the finger tips, and skin texture that ultimately change the finger prints.


3. Then how about control? Control would be the period of time between your birth, and the time that you're exposed to something that change your finger prints. If you're using a large amount of people, compare those who don't have issues that change their finger prints, to those who have issues that result in their fingers print being altered.

Does that clear things up a bit more?[/quote]
Tiffany :)

wildfirefox
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Re: fingerprints closest to mine exp.. mom & dad sister

Postby wildfirefox » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:40 am

tmd523 wrote:Im trying to think of the experiment itself don't I have tgo perform it 3 times or is that not true for a science fair project ???

Remember, a good experiment comes from getting the same or similar results from multiple experiments. If you try an experiment only once, you may or may not get the results you need. By having more than two experiments, you can compare your results side-by-side. If your results produce the same data over and over again, you can present the experiment with hard proof. If not, you can argue about the experiment results.

tmd523 wrote:my constant would be the prints themselves because they don't change ? help??


Yep, your prints are a constant. It doesn't change.
Those who can see that do not exist are geniuses. Those who can see what exists are brilliant. Those cannot see what exists are ignorant.
- Lao Tsu

HeatherL
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Postby HeatherL » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:24 am

Hi Tiffany,

What an interesting project!

You have already gotten a lot of great help from the other experts. I just wanted to address your family comparison. One question you can address is whether fingerprints are more similar among people who are more closely related. In other words, would your fingerprint patterns look more like your parents' than your aunt's or uncle's? What about unrelated people? The suggestion of comparing twin fingerprints is a good one.

To get started, you could take fingerprints from yourself and some of your family, and enlarge the images. At first, it's probably best to pick one finger (for consistency). By looking at the patterns, you can identify certain characteristics that you can compare.

I know we have some forensics experts in this forum. Perhaps they can talk about how the computer programs use fingerprint pattern characteristics to match fingerprints in a database.

Good luck!
Heather

Alison
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Postby Alison » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:27 am

Hi Tiffany,
The previous posts have mostly centered on how fingerprints might change during someone's life after they are born, but it sounds to me like your original question was more about how fingerprint patterns are inherited by children from their parents (passed to children through their genes). Your question basically asks which family members share the most fingerprint "traits" (the things about the fingerprints you decide to measure!). Specifically, you want to know which family member has fingerprints most similar to YOURS, but you could ask this same question for any kid in any family (meaning you could run the experiment more than once!). Is this what you're trying to ask?

So, it seems to me that you're talking about a project where you get to test how parents pass traits to their children. These traits could be anything - hair or eye color, the shape of your ears...and you've chosen one of the coolest: fingerprint patterns!

All traits depend on some mixture of your genes and your environment. This is definitely true for fingerprints: some of it depends on the genes your mom and dad passed to you, and some depends on what the environment was like in your mom's uterus while your fingerprints were actually forming (and in some cases, the ways that have already been posted about how people can try to change their fingerprints after they're born :)).

Since measuring the environmental variables that affect fingerprint formation in the womb would be fairly unrealistic (and impossible for YOUR particular fingerprints - they've already formed!) and most people don't try to or succeed at changing their prints, let's talk about genes. Not all family members share the same amount of genetic information. Unless you have an identical twin, you share more genes with your parents than any other family member. They each gave you half of their genes. But what about other family members? How many of your genes do you share with them? Try looking in some textbooks or at the library for a simple explanation of how genes are inherited.

Now let's talk about independent and dependent variables. This is hard to understand in your project because we usually think about the dependent variable as the one that "changes." I see two variables in your project: 1) how related a person is to you (your mom, your dad, your brother or sister, grandparents, etc.), and 2) what kind of fingerprints they have. But neither genes nor fingerprints "change"!

The way I always think about independent vs. dependent is to set my two variables up in a sentence. Am I interested in how variable #1 differs in repsonse to variable #2, or how #2 differs in response to #1? The one that does the differing in response to the other is the dependent, the other the independent. Sounds a little confusing, but let's try it with your project.

So again, two variables in your project: 1) how related a person is to you, and 2) what kind of fingerprints they have. Which of these do you think would be the independent and which would be the dependent variable? Are you testing how fingerprints differ based on how related people are, or how relatedness differs based on fingerprint patterns? Which do you think is "changing" in response to the other? (Another way to think about it is which comes first. Are genes made in response to fingerprints, or fingerprints made in repsonse to genes?)

Once you've outlined these variables, you can move on to deciding what your hypothesis is and exactly how you're going to test it. I don't want to cover too much here because this is already a long post, but hopefully not too confusing!

I think you've got a great start on a great project! Post back when you can :)

Alison


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