Camille9805
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:15 pm

Help with Saturn project

Postby Camille9805 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:37 pm

We are trying to do the "What makes the rings of Saturn project?" and having sme problems. We're doing what is posted, but not noticing any differences in the images and not sure what is supposed to be happening. We have the black construction paper and are putting glue around the outside edges of the paper. We then put in whatever material we are using for that cycle (rice, glitter, sand, or salt). We wait for it to dry, then put it on the record player and take the first picture. We then turn on the record player and take a picture of it while it is turning. All of the images look the same, both the "before" and "after." This is a really cool project and it is too late to change topics. We would like to make this work. Can anyone help us with this?

Here's a link to where the images can be seen:
http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare ... =112809105

Thanks.[/img]

Louise
Former Expert
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:17 pm

Re: Help with Saturn project

Postby Louise » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:09 am

Camille9805 wrote:We are trying to do the "What makes the rings of Saturn project?" and having sme problems. We're doing what is posted, but not noticing any differences in the images and not sure what is supposed to be happening. We have the black construction paper and are putting glue around the outside edges of the paper. We then put in whatever material we are using for that cycle (rice, glitter, sand, or salt). We wait for it to dry, then put it on the record player and take the first picture. We then turn on the record player and take a picture of it while it is turning. All of the images look the same, both the "before" and "after." This is a really cool project and it is too late to change topics. We would like to make this work. Can anyone help us with this?

Here's a link to where the images can be seen:
http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare ... =112809105

Thanks.[/img]


I think the problem is that your starting rings look too dense (have too much material). You can already tell they are rings. They should not be obviously a ring before you spin them. Use a marker and try just putting 6 dots or something in a circle patter. Spin that, and it should blur to a ring.


Louise

vishwa
Former Expert
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:30 am

Postby vishwa » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:16 am

Hi Camille,
That's a very interesting project that you have there. And it is an excellent idea to post your results so that we can see it; was very helpful. Looking at the last few pictures, I think they do really look like the ice + gaseous rings that Saturn has.
But remember that the rings actually look continuous (they are actually not, they are just ice, dust and gases) in Saturn since they are moving around the planet with speed. So, if there is a chance (am not sure) that you could increase the speed of rotation, then by all means go for it. The faster you rotate it, the better the "continuity" of your rings.
You are also using all the right materials - crushed sugar and salt mimic the "ice" rings really well. It is also important to ensure that the material in a given ring not be "dense" - having spaces in between and then rotating them actually makes them look like the Saturn rings. You could also mix the material you are using for the rings with a small amount of black pepper.
Make sure that the the different "layers of rings" can be differentiated from one another - you could do this by gluing the edge of a particular ring (say you used crushed sugar here) by glitter so that this would "mark" the boundary and can be seen when it is rotating. Then create the next "ring" and then again repeat the above. See how it works out for a couple of rings first. When doing so, try and increase the "thickness" of the rings a bit.

Vishwa

Camille9805
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:15 pm

Thanks

Postby Camille9805 » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:15 pm

Louse and vishwa, thanks for the responses. They were really helpful.

We've tried to follow your suggestions, but are still not getting the results that we should. The "after" pictures still come out looking like the "before" pictures (the link below goes to the last one we tried using glitter and putting in spacing as suggested). Unfortunately, the record player does not have a faster speed so we can't make it go any faster. it just has the standard 33 and 45 speeds. But, we're still not getting the blurring effect in the "after" pictures. So, since we were already including a model of Saturn that we put together and painted, at this point we'll just have to use that with a discussion of the rings of Saturn, unless we can get this experiment working sometime soon. It's a shame because it looked like a really cool experiment.

Thanks, again!

http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare ... =112809105

vishwa
Former Expert
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:30 am

Postby vishwa » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:47 pm

Thats OK Camille. Kudos to you guys or trying so hard! That's what is important.
I have one more suggestion and again, am not sure how it would work out. You need the Earth globe for this - by this, I mean the tabletop model of Earth that is commonly available. Cover/paint the entire Globe with something that makes it resemble Saturn instead of Earth with maps, countries, oceans etc.
If you can get one, then take out the "axis" and simply hang the globe from a rod or something that can hold it. Now you can spin it as fast as you want! Then take a large piece of black paper, cut a hole in the center (corresponding to the size of the Globe) and then "insert" the globe through the hole, such that the black paper (now "encircling" the Globe) is at the center. Does this make sense so far?
You can then do the same thing as you did previously, for the Saturn "rings". Only now, the material for the ring would be spread out on the black paper surrounding Saturn - therefore you might have to get a bigger piece of paper for more rings. Make sure you "cut out" unwanted portions of the paper. For starters, again, try with a couple of rings. Now, since you can rotate it as fast as you want (make sure the gluing is good!) manually, you might get the "blur" that you need.
As an aside, remember that you need not have just the Globe - it could be anything spherical - a basketball, a soccer ball etc or anything that can be hung from a support. Just make sure it is not too big a Globe since that might make it difficult to pattern and spin the "rings".

Vishwa

geoffbruton
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Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:02 am

Postby geoffbruton » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:45 am

Hi Camille!

Well done for trying so hard with this project! I would echo everything that others have already posted, but one thing did occur to me with regards to the photography / blurring section of your work.

When you spun the card, did you observe any blurring together of the distinct particles, or was it just that you couldn't capture them on your camera?

I think that one of the problems may be that the shutter speed on your camera is too fast. If you were able to extend the length of time that your camera shutter was open (with the camera set on "timer" and preferably mounted on a tripod or set in a particular place, rather than being hand-held), this would allow the film/sensor to capture the blurring effect. Do you have access to a camera that would allow you to manipulate the settings? If you don't, try asking your teacher or some of your family or friends.

Anyway, like I said, there have been a lot of great posts and I truly commend your efforts!

Hope this helps, and good luck!
Geoff.
Geoff Bruton
Firearm & Toolmark Section
Ventura County Sheriff's Department
Forensic Sciences Laboratory

Camille9805
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:15 pm

Postby Camille9805 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:01 am

vishwa, thanks for the suggestion. I may try this for the next project. It's an excellent idea.

geoffbruton, the problem was that we couldn't capture the blurring on the camera. We could see it blurring as it was spinning, just couldn't capture it. Someone did mention to me today about the shutter speed, but our camera doesn't have the capability to change the shutter speed, although it does have a timer.

What we ended up doing for the project is to display the Saturn model, with a discussion on the rings. But, we also included the discussion on the experiment (since we did take quite a bit of time actually doing it). We just didn't have the pictures to display. There is a possibility that we can do the experiment in class, with the teacher's and mom's approval of course. It is very likely that we will have to display this in the local science fair early next week, so it is still a possibility that this can be done.

So, thanks for all the suggestions. They were very helpful!


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