Science Buddies: "Ask an Expert"

hhamodat wrote:yes I think I should do that too, but I don't know where I can get a weight scale that measures something so light. I don't think he have any at school. Even if I put like 10, I still don't think it can weigh it. But I'll see what I can do.

Example that zzzzdoc wanted:

Tylenol: inactive ingredients: celloluse, corn starch, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, polyethylene glycol, sodium starch glycolate.

And it doesn't say but i think that the active is just acetaminophen!

I really need help about the title! What is a good catchy title for my project? I can't think of anything because the question is too long and not that fun so i need something that's good!! Thanks!!

the active ingredient is the drug- that is correct

I weighed the aleve i have- 52 were ~ 30 g on the food scale I have

You usually have 100 in a jar so you should weigh all the ones you have left A household scale should get the weight of 90 advil or whatever okay

If your teacher has a nice scale you could just weigh one or two- you need a scale that can weigh 1/2 to 1 g accurately


Louise

I'm not very good at coming up with titles, but in this case, what about something like, 'Want fast relief from a headache? Try ibuprofen!' The problem with it (aside from not really being 'catchy') is that it sounds more than a little like a commercial.

Hopefully this will help you think of something, though.

Yes, the only active ingredient should be acetaminophen.

The scale problem is a little difficult. I have a number of scales that measure to 0.1 g accuracy at home, but that isn't nearly accurate enough for this purpose to weigh one pill. That's why weighing multiple pills solves the problem.

Does your school have an analytical balance?

I tried this at home with my scale.

80 Ibuprofen tablets weighed 25.7g
Therefore each tablet weighed 321.3g
The amount of Ibupofen in each tablet was 200mg (their strength).

Therefore, each tablet contained 200mg Ibuprofen, and 121.3g of filler.
So for the pills I measured, the active ingredient was 62% of the weight and the inactive ingredients were 38% of the weight.

Whoops, here's the editing thing again. I messed up the units. Here's the real answer that I found.

80 Ibuprofen tablets weighed 25.7g
Therefore each tablet weighed 321.3mg
The amount of Ibupofen in each tablet was 200mg (their strength).

Therefore, each tablet contained 200mg Ibuprofen, and 121.3mg of filler.
So for the pills I measured, the active ingredient was 62% of the weight and the inactive ingredients were 38% of the weight.

Not the change in the individual pill units to mg not g.

Thank you soo much! I think i should do that for every single pill, but would that be something to add on the board? In the conclusion? Or like background information that a judge might ask? I'll see if i can get a scale from my teacher! And thanks for the title Melissa, i might use something like it! What are some other questions judges might ask me? I'm just trying to get prepared. Thanks!!

Thanks for the idea guys! I did the experiment and weighed the pills with my teacher's scale. It's not exactly 100% accurate but it's close enough. I was able to measure each pill seperately! And my results were:

Tylenol: 0.7 g= 700 mg
Supposed to be 500 mg
500 mg acetaminophen
200 mg non-active ingredients
71% active 29% non-active

Acetaminophen: 0.6 g= 600 mg
Supposed to be 500 mg
500 mg acetaminophen
100 mg non-active ingredients
83% active 17% non-active

Advil: 0.5 g= 500 mg
Supposed to be 200 mg
200 mg Ibuprofen
300 mg non-active ingredients
40% active 60% non-active

Ibuprofen: 0.3 g= 300 mg
Supposed to be 200 mg
200 mg Ibuprofen
100 mg non-active ingredients
67% active 33% non-active

Aspirin: 0.2 g= 200 mg
Supposed to be 81 mg
81 mg Ibuprofen
119 mg non-active ingredients
40% active 60% non-active

ASA: 0.3 g= 300 mg
Supposed to be 81 mg
81 mg Ibuprofen
219 mg non-active ingredients
27% active 73% non-active

So I'm going to add these in my conclusion! I'm really happy about the results! I'm planning to do 25 ml for the Aspirin and 25 ml for the ASA today and see exactly how much it takes it to dissolve. How much should I wait for the max, about 30 minutes to the most? About what is the normal dissolution rate for these pills? Thanks!

sorry i made a mistake:
Aspirin: 0.2 g= 200 mg
Supposed to be 81 mg
81 mg ASA ******
119 mg non-active ingredients
40% active 60% non-active

ASA: 0.3 g= 300 mg
Supposed to be 81 mg
81 mg ASA ******
219 mg non-active ingredients
27% active 73% non-active

******* that's where I made the mistake! ooops!

Interesting. I definitely think that this improves your experiment.

As to how long to wait, I would wait as long as it takes until both dissolve (probably would stop after a few months )

Also, just so that you know, you chose low dose aspirin and ASA to test. OK since you chose the same strength for both, but normal aspirin and ASA tablets contain 325 mg of ASA. The dose you chose is a dose that many people take to prevent heart attacks and strokes, not to treat headaches. A small point, just one that you should remember.

I just graphed the time to dissolve vs. % filler out of curiosity as well as the amount of filler (in grams) vs. time to dissolve. (I was wondering if the more filler that a pill had, the longer it took to dissolve). Something to look at for fun. If you had enough acid to get real data for how long the ASA and aspirin took to dissolve, it might have shown an interesting relationship. Something to think about in the future, as something to look at as a future experiment (something I also ask kids about when grading their projects.)

zzzzdoc wrote:Interesting. I definitely think that this improves your experiment.

[snip]

I just graphed the time to dissolve vs. % filler out of curiosity as well as the amount of filler (in grams) vs. time to dissolve. (I was wondering if the more filler that a pill had, the longer it took to dissolve). Something to look at for fun. If you had enough acid to get real data for how long the ASA and aspirin took to dissolve, it might have shown an interesting relationship. Something to think about in the future, as something to look at as a future experiment (something I also ask kids about when grading their projects.)

I was thinking there are two things to check when analyzing the data-

1) the relationship above- time vs. filler (either as mass or percent)
2) time vs. total mass- after all, the active ingredient has to dissolve too!

Both these graphs may show high correlation.

Actually, what is probably important is some sort of mass/ surface area relationship. This is something else you could think about for future work. So a pill with a large surface area probably would dissolve faster than a pill of the same mass, but a smaller surface area. I don't know if the shape variations in pills are large enough to have a big effect...


I'm glad you were able to find a scale/balance. As zzzzdoc says, I think this data enhances your project a lot, especially if you can use this data in some semi-quantitative way.


Louise

Hi,

I wasn't exactly planning to take that little experiment far, I was just planning to make it a scientific reason only and not really make it complicated. I did add in my booklet of background information 6 pie graphs comparing the non-active and active ingredients but that's all. I think I'm going to leave it to that and explain it in my presentation but yeah. I'm done everything! I'm very happy! I'm putting everything on the board right now! I have to hand it in 5 more days so I think I can make it. Thank you everyone for all your help!

I just remembered that I forgot to tell you my mark for my proposal! My teacher gave it back to us and I got 23/25! I'm not too happy with it because I got everything perfect except for originality I got 2/4 so I got a 92% ! I guess It's ok but I'm hoping to do better in my final project. I'm done! It's all on my board except for one thing: the title! It's getting me really frustrated because I was planning to do something like what Melissa said but like she said it's kind of a bit too comercial like. Is there anything I should know about the presentation? Any tips? Thanks!!

As far as originality is concerned, I really don't think there is any such thing as an original science fair project at this level. Truly original research is what graduate and post-graduate college students do.

I personally like novel ways to look at old topics. And my own kids and I have spent MANY hours trying to come up with truly original topics.

So don't be upset about the originality score. The quality of your work will show through.

Personally, I have always liked puns or catchy phrases for titles. For example, my daughter chose, "Clunk on the Head, You Won't Be Dead" for a Science Fair Project on dropping a penny off the Empire State Building. Catchy, cutesy, and gives the summary conclusion at the same time.

Ideas we rejected were, "Cent to the grave?", 'Honest Abe Won't Kill Ya, Babe", and my daughter almost chose, "Pennies from Heaven". Basically, all puns that had a connection to the project. I think you get the idea. Not Shakespeare, but eye-catching is what you want.

hhamodat wrote:I just remembered that I forgot to tell you my mark for my proposal! My teacher gave it back to us and I got 23/25! I'm not too happy with it because I got everything perfect except for originality I got 2/4 so I got a 92% ! I guess It's ok but I'm hoping to do better in my final project. I'm done! It's all on my board except for one thing: the title! It's getting me really frustrated because I was planning to do something like what Melissa said but like she said it's kind of a bit too comercial like. Is there anything I should know about the presentation? Any tips? Thanks!!

Congrats on the score! That is very good. I agree with zzzzdoc about originiality. Even at the highest levels a lot of research isn't original- it is just doing an experiment more accurately or testing a new material. Originality is a rare- and even when you have that spark of creativity, it is common to find that someone else did it first.

The title is important, but the judges are going to be judging you on scientific merit, not how clever your title is. As I said in your other thread on this topic-
"How do the pain relievers advertise themselves? For example, if brand X says on TV -"The Fastest Acting Drug", then your title could be "Is Brand X really the Fastest Acting Drug?" "

For example, in the US, a drug called nuprin used to have the slogan- "Nuprin! Little, yellow, different, BETTER!" This ad ran all the time- you could say "little, yellow, different, better" to a random person on the street, and they would know you were talking about headache meds.


If one of the drugs you had tested was nuprin, your title could be "Little, yellow, different, BETTER?"

So, of the drugs you studied, is there one with a really catchy ad slogan you could turn around? You would want to use a phrase that people would recognize immediately.

Louise

hi guys!

ok i came up with some titles and i need you to help me choose the one that's most appopriate for my project.

• • Pain? What pain reliever to take?
    
    The Dissolution Race of Pain Relievers
    
    Pain Killing
    
    Fastest Pain Reliever
    
    The fastest acting pain relief?
    
    Hard to spell R-E-L-I-E-F?
    
    Faster dissolution: Faster Pain Relief!
    
    Fast dissolve, fast relief, fast pain reliever!
    
    Just not the right pain reliever?

Thanks!! I'm presenting my project tomorrow so i'm excited!

THANKS EVERYONE WHO HELPED ME!

I'll chime in first, because I happen to be browsing.

#1 - (Pain? What pain reliever to take?) Doesn't really relate specifically to your project.

#2 - (The Dissolution Race of Pain Relievers) Accurate, but not exciting. Perhaps having this as a second line to a catchy first line would be a winner.

#3 - (Pain Killing) Your project is about dissolution rates, not efficacy, so this is wrong.

#4 - (Fastest Pain Reliever) Maybe, but is it eye-catching?

#5 - (The fastest acting pain relief?) Similar to #4

#6 - (Hard to spell R-E-L-I-E-F?) The commercial was, "How do you spell relief?" It was also a commercial for Alka-Seltzer (which contains ASA, BTW.)

#7 - (Faster dissolution: Faster Pain Relief!) Not bad, except you're back to the fact that you didn't look at any issues of how well the pain reliever worked. So you really don't know if a faster dissolving tablet relieves pain faster. It's a logical assumption, but it isn't necessarily true.

#8 - (Fast dissolve, fast relief, fast pain reliever!) Same as #7.

#9 - (Just not the right pain reliever?) Same as #8, but less interesting.

So personally, I would probably pick 2 or 7. I think though, I'd still try to come up with a catchier phrase to put on top of #2. Hopefully one of the other experts here can help modify one of those to make it into a classic.

BTW, I may be being pickier than some of the other experts here regarding choice #7, but I'm an anesthesiologist, and we're pretty demanding regarding EXACTLY how and when pain medicines work.

zzzzdoc wrote:I'll chime in first, because I happen to be browsing.

#1 - (Pain? What pain reliever to take?) Doesn't really relate specifically to your project.

#2 - (The Dissolution Race of Pain Relievers) Accurate, but not exciting. Perhaps having this as a second line to a catchy first line would be a winner.

#3 - (Pain Killing) Your project is about dissolution rates, not efficacy, so this is wrong.

#4 - (Fastest Pain Reliever) Maybe, but is it eye-catching?

#5 - (The fastest acting pain relief?) Similar to #4

#6 - (Hard to spell R-E-L-I-E-F?) The commercial was, "How do you spell relief?" It was also a commercial for Alka-Seltzer (which contains ASA, BTW.)

#7 - (Faster dissolution: Faster Pain Relief!) Not bad, except you're back to the fact that you didn't look at any issues of how well the pain reliever worked. So you really don't know if a faster dissolving tablet relieves pain faster. It's a logical assumption, but it isn't necessarily true.

#8 - (Fast dissolve, fast relief, fast pain reliever!) Same as #7.

#9 - (Just not the right pain reliever?) Same as #8, but less interesting.

So personally, I would probably pick 2 or 7. I think though, I'd still try to come up with a catchier phrase to put on top of #2. Hopefully one of the other experts here can help modify one of those to make it into a classic.

BTW, I may be being pickier than some of the other experts here regarding choice #7, but I'm an anesthesiologist, and we're pretty demanding regarding EXACTLY how and when pain medicines work.

I see what you mean, I was thinking that those were a bit queer but i really got no idea because they're not really catchy but that's all I got. I was thinking about #2 really because I was thinking that and then underneath like "one....two...three...go!" or something like that but people think it's stupid! So i'm still not sure any more. Do you have any suggestions on what I can add on two, or make 7 more catchy??

hhamodat wrote:

zzzzdoc wrote:I'll chime in first, because I happen to be browsing.

#1 - (Pain? What pain reliever to take?) Doesn't really relate specifically to your project.

#2 - (The Dissolution Race of Pain Relievers) Accurate, but not exciting. Perhaps having this as a second line to a catchy first line would be a winner.

#3 - (Pain Killing) Your project is about dissolution rates, not efficacy, so this is wrong.

#4 - (Fastest Pain Reliever) Maybe, but is it eye-catching?

#5 - (The fastest acting pain relief?) Similar to #4

#6 - (Hard to spell R-E-L-I-E-F?) The commercial was, "How do you spell relief?" It was also a commercial for Alka-Seltzer (which contains ASA, BTW.)

#7 - (Faster dissolution: Faster Pain Relief!) Not bad, except you're back to the fact that you didn't look at any issues of how well the pain reliever worked. So you really don't know if a faster dissolving tablet relieves pain faster. It's a logical assumption, but it isn't necessarily true.

#8 - (Fast dissolve, fast relief, fast pain reliever!) Same as #7.

#9 - (Just not the right pain reliever?) Same as #8, but less interesting.

So personally, I would probably pick 2 or 7. I think though, I'd still try to come up with a catchier phrase to put on top of #2. Hopefully one of the other experts here can help modify one of those to make it into a classic.

BTW, I may be being pickier than some of the other experts here regarding choice #7, but I'm an anesthesiologist, and we're pretty demanding regarding EXACTLY how and when pain medicines work.

I see what you mean, I was thinking that those were a bit queer but i really got no idea because they're not really catchy but that's all I got. I was thinking about #2 really because I was thinking that and then underneath like "one....two...three...go!" or something like that but people think it's stupid! So i'm still not sure any more. Do you have any suggestions on what I can add on two, or make 7 more catchy??

I agree with zzzzdoc about avoiding any claims to pain relief since yu didn't test that.

I don't think:
The Dissolution Race of Pain Relievers-
One, Two, Three ...Go

is so bad...

And while this is inaccurate for the reasons zzzzdoc says above, it is catchy-
Race to Relief-
How fast do pain relievers dissolve?

Maybe with the more accurate subtitle it is okay...


Louise

Louise

I don't know if these commercials show in Canada, but down here in the States, the most annoying commercial in recent history was for Head On - an absurd product designed to cure headaches by pushing on the head. There are countless parodies of it on You Tube, many TV shows, and people even have ring tones of the commercial. MSNBC picked it as the worst commercial of 2006.

A title that somehow used that could be hysterical down here, but if the commercial doesn't air in Canada, no one would get the joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeadOn

Alka Seltzer had a long list of catch phrases that we all couldn't get out of our heads:
Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, Oh what a relief it is.
I can't believe I ate the whole thing.
Try it, you'll like it!
Mamma mia, that's-a spicy meatball-a

Maybe adding one of the Alka-Seltzer phrases as the Title in large type, with "The Dissolution Rate of Pain Relievers":

Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, Oh what a relief it is!
The Dissolution Rate of Pain Relievers


You know, I just re-read #2. I don't know if you meant to use "race" instead of "rate", but that's not bad by itself either.

Anyway, just brainstorming. And having a blast watching old pain reliever commercials on YouTube.

hahahahhaa, i know what you mean... Head on commercial is sooo annoying. It airs in Canada too. so are you saying I should do something like that? like right a slogan that is soo annoying.. I really like Louise's idea, the Race to Relief- How fast do pain relievers dissolve? I find it catchy and gives enough information. I was looking at tylenol commericals on youtube but they're really stupid and not something I could use for a title. I don't think i can do the an Alka Seltzer slogan because I didn't use that pill but maybe I can find one for like tylenol because that's the one which won. And i wrote race not rate but if you want rate might make sense. Eventhough I'm not really finding the rate. I was thinking something like race and then the race flags on the side or something.

If you like Louise's idea, go for it. I agree - it's catchy, and describes the experiment. More importantly -- YOU LIKE IT.

Book em, Dano.

BTW, don't forget to tell us how you did. We all love getting the feedback.

Good luck tomorrow! I hope everything goes very well...

Louise

hi!!!

I presented my project and I got a 96% because it's out of 50. I then went to the school fair and I won and got a medal and now i'm going to the regionals! I'm really excited for it and can't wait. Thank you sooooooooooooo much for all your help- I couldn't have done it without you. And thanks Louise for the title- I used it!! My title is kind of huge- but that's ok- it stands out! The regionals is on the 30th plus 31st- but i don't think i'm going to get anything because it's from grade 7-12 and the judges judge really hard. But i'm still looking foward to it! Thanks again, I really appreciate your help!

Congratulations . I'm glad everything worked out so well for you!

Wonderful news. Congratulations.

Do tell us about the regionals when they are done.

Thanks... wish me luck for the regionals!

A pool supply store usually stocks "Muriatic Acid" which is HCl. You might also find at a hardware store or home improvement store that sells masonry and tile products as acid washing is part of many installation processes.

While it isn't reagent grade (the quality that chemists need for analitical work), neither is what is in stomachs. You aren't doing any chemical analysis of the results so pool store "Muratic Acid" should be fine for your experiment.

Please note that different Pharmaceutical firms have different formulations for the binders and coatings. Most are probably designed so they won't immediately disolve when you get them the slightest bit wet. These firms usually don't want to leave a bad taste in the mouths of their customers caused by the active ingredient disolving in the mouth.

You are probably going to find more out about the non-active ingredients than the active drug itself. This means that you should probably investigate different brands of the same drug. Note: Some "store" brands may actually be made by the same manufacturer as the "brand name" or they may share the same formulation.

You should also try to look up some older FDA testing proceedures used to insure that tablets and capsules actually disolve. Most of these older tests have been replaced by bio-availability tests that attempt to measure how much of the active ingredient is actually absorbed.

This experiment falls into "Pharmeceutical Sciences" and Industrial Pharmacists are the experts who do these things for a living.

Sorry, I messed up and read page one and not the latest.

hhamodat wrote:hi!!!

I presented my project and I got a 96% because it's out of 50. I then went to the school fair and I won and got a medal and now i'm going to the regionals! I'm really excited for it and can't wait. Thank you sooooooooooooo much for all your help- I couldn't have done it without you. And thanks Louise for the title- I used it!! My title is kind of huge- but that's ok- it stands out! The regionals is on the 30th plus 31st- but i don't think i'm going to get anything because it's from grade 7-12 and the judges judge really hard. But i'm still looking foward to it! Thanks again, I really appreciate your help!

That is fantastic! Good luck at the regionals. Have fun there!

Louise

The regionals is tomorrow! Any tips that I should remember? I'm really nervous and i don't think i'm going to win a medal because there's like 500 students there!! ahhhhhhh