Science Buddies: "Ask an Expert"

Science Fair Projects are frustrating. My teacher approved of the idea, and I am to start experimenting soon (monday) and I am starting to feel like my experiment isn't valid... My experiment was to find the a ratio of dairy product:daily retainment of calcium. I now think I should change that too comparing dairy to non dairy products into which has more calcium (so as to find if dairy products are truly as good as the dairy industry says it is). I have thought of what I am to experiment with: Silk Soy milk (regular): skim milk. First question: Should I have more variables? as in fruits with calcium and other non dairy products, and more dairy products. Second question: I have no way of measuring the calcium in non milk products (because the calcium amount is on the label) what is a way I could use at my high school that doesn't require shipping or calcium assay (too expensive)? Third question: should I find out how much of the product is retained in the body because I am using the daily retainment as part of the ratio, or should I just change the daily retainment to the daily intake?

Please and thank you (:

Hi,

This is an interesting project, but measuring calcium retention is difficult to do. Here is a study that used radiolabeled calcium in the diet and measured the calcium retention by measuring the calcium isotopes in the test subjects after several weeks of special diets.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/record/NCT00620763

This was a government-sponsored study, but type of experiment would not be suitable or even allowed in a science fair project because it involved testing on humans.

So, please let us know more about your project. What concept did your teacher approve? Do you have a hypothesis yet? Did your teacher approve a specific experiment, or just the concept? I think we will be able to give you some suggestions for an experiment if we know more about what you want to do. You need to have a topic that you can do an actual experiment on. And you need to have an experiment with just one independent variable.

We definitely want to make your science fair project less frustrating. I'm sure there is a solution, so please give us more details.

Donna Hardy

Okay so daily retention is out, I can deal with that. My teacher approved of when I was going to compare the ratios of calcium products to daily intake (1000mg) but then I changed it too dairy products v nondairy products because then my independent variable could be the amount of product? Or maybe dairy is constant and nondairy is variable?

Another thing I just though of was if I was to compare beans to cheese. soymilk to milk. and oatmeal to yogurt. I would then have several ratios and maybe more of an experiment.
my research plan so far...
Question:How does the ratio of different caclium products to daily intake of calium differentiate?
Hypothesis:If I calculate the ratio of skim mlke to daily calcium and soy milk to daily calcium, then the soy milk to daily calcium ratio will be greater.

Hi,

I think you should go back to the original, approved project idea. Here’s an experiment from the science buddies website that you can adapt to answer a question like: Do high school girls (or boys) consume enough calcium?

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... 1&from=TSW

In this experiment, you have volunteers, preferably all about the same age; record their diet for a week or so. It would be important to not reveal the purpose of your project, which is to find out if the subjects consume the minimum daily requirement for calcium. You can say you are doing a survey on fruits and vegetables, or whatever. I recommend getting as many volunteers as possible because when working with people, you will get some unusable data. This project involves working with humans, so you would need to get permission to do this, and you would need each volunteer to sign a consent form. Ask your teacher about any other requirements. Also, you would need to allow plenty of time for data analysis on this project.

Project option #2: If you want to do a project on dairy vs. non-dairy, you could compare the solubility of the calcium salts used in the dairy and non-dairy products. Calcium is added to products as calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, and calcium citrate. Presumably the more soluble forms of calcium are more available for retention. You would need to do background research and become an expert in calcium chemistry and solubility. And, you would need to gather data from the labels to find out the concentration and source of the calcium salts. Your question could be something like: “Do non-dairy products provide a good source of calcium?” This project is more of a survey project rather than an experimental project, so check with your teacher to make sure this would meet the requirements of the assignment.

Project option #3: If you want to do a lab experiment, you could consider using the following method to analyze calcium. In your original message, it seemed like you were interested in doing a lab project:

http://faculty.ccri.edu/aahughes/GenChe ... ration.pdf

Check with your teacher to see if EDTA, calcium carbonate, 12 M HCl, and Eriochrome Black T are available from your school. You really don’t need to purchase a test kit. You would also need a buret for the titration. This method will work best with water samples, so maybe you could ask the question, “does tap water provide a good source of calcium in my community.” If you do this project, you will need to follow all lab safety precautions when working with the 12 M HCl.

Does this help? You just need to ask one specific question, and then do a survey or an experiment that will answer that question. Please pick a project that seems to be most interesting to you. And please have fun doing this. You will discover something new, whatever you decide to do.


Donna Hardy

Hi,

You were posting your last message, while I was composing my last reply, so here is a reply to your most recent message.

It seems like you are thinking about a project more like project option #2, which involves a survey and analysis of product labels. Is the ratio you are proposing mg calcium per total daily mg calcium RDA? Or, is it mg calcium per 1000 calories Your question is not completely clear. What is the purpose of your project? Is it just to find out how many mg of calcium are available in dairy and non-dairy products? If your hypothesis is that soy milk will have more calcium, you should restate question as “Do dairy or non-dairy milk products contain more calcium?” And your hypothesis should be stated something like, “I think non-dairy milk (or soy milk) will have more calcium compared to dairy milk.” You would need to do a survey of the calcium content of several brands and types of soy and dairy milk.

This project would meet the requirements of a science fair project, but do check your original assignment or ask your teacher to make sure it is OK because you have changed the original approved project slightly. I would recommend doing lots of background reading and including real literature references, as this will help make your results and conclusion sections more meaningful. On your project board, you will want to explain the purpose to make your project more meaningful. Also, do include data from as many product labels as possible to make your project more comprehensive.

Donna Hardy

Okay the reason I am doing this experiment is I am a Pescetarian and my parents are avid milk drinkers. I recently discovered dairy products are only thought to be the best way to get your calcium and it might not even be the best way to get it. The reason milk is the first thing that pops into someone's head when someone says calcium is the milk industry promotes it so much (got milk?) etc. I also heard (which may be untrue and is kind of unrelated) the enzymes in dairy products don't stick to your bones, so you don't even contain the calcium in milk, I am telling you this because this is why i stopped drinking milk and switched to soy milk. My parents don't approve because now I don't drink soy milk as much as I had drunk regular milk. Now to the experiment, it was the perfect way to prove them (or me) wrong. When I researched how much calcium the average person should get I found out they should get about 1000mg, The ratio would be of dairy product to daily recommendation (I guess thats the right word) i.e. skim milk/1000mg (of calcium). So I guess its mg calcium per total daily mg calcium RDA. Has this turned into a research project, or will I be experimenting? I guess I could also make it a brand project, but is that still comparing nondairy to dairy? While researching today I found a whole list of nondairy calcium products (with sources from mypyramid, FDA, etc) link to:
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/At ... osmilk.jsp
I was also thinking maybe a comparison of dairy to nondairy, what you can substitute and which has more calcium. Frozen yoghurt to processed cheese spread or Refried beans to Instant oatmeal (based on the website)

I am sorry that this is so confusing (well for me at least).

Hi,

Your background explanation is perfect for a science fair project! You have a real reason for researching this topic and you need to respond to your parents’ concern about your calcium consumption. What better way than a scientific approach? The very best projects are those that you are really interested in, so I think this project will be a good one. And this project will have significance for everyone who is lactose intolerant or allergic to milk. Your parents concern is valid because you will only be able to deposit calcium in your bones for a few more years, and starting in your 20’s you will be losing calcium for the rest of your life. So it’s best to store up as much calcium as possible while your physiology allows it.

Your question for this project might be: “Can a pescetarian get enough calcium through non-dairy sources?” Your hypothesis, of course, since you are doing the project, will be that you think that it is possible for a pescetarian to obtain enough calcium from non-dairy sources of food. Your results section might include a record of your diet for a week or so, documenting the mg of calcium that you consume. If you do the survey project using your friends as subjects, you could include calcium consumption results of vegetarian/non-vegetarians. You could also have the section comparing calcium content of dairy milk and non-dairy milk, which will provide data for analysis. Vitamin D is required for calcium utilization, so you might consider adding vitamin D to the research question.

The one thing that is missing from your project is the background literature search that will explain the importance of calcium in the diet, and research papers that are related to your topic. Most of the websites that come up are not scientific research articles, so you don’t know if the information is valid.

For example, here is the food pyamid from the US government:

* site no longer available -- mypyramid.gov/pyramid/milk_tips.html

This pyramid is presumably based on the latest scientific research so you can include this in your references, even though you think the recommendations may have been biased by the dairy industry.

The website that you found contains good information about non-dairy sources of calcium, but again, it is not from a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It says at the bottom it was reviewed, but you don’t know who did the reviewing.

Here’s a website that includes a summary of research projects that were funded by the US government. A number of research articles summarized, so why don’t you look through these and see if there is any information related to your topic?

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/calcium.html

Here a website with a summary of research done at a USDA lab on recombinant carrots that has a gene for calcium accumulation. The name, phone number and e-mail address of the author are included, so maybe you will want to contact him and ask about his research or other scientific resources for your topic.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/n ... ts1108.pdf

You might also be able to contact a registered dietician to interview for additional information.

It would be helpful if you could find a bone density study that included older pescetarians compared to non-vegetarian milk-drinkers.

I hope this gives you some ideas to proceed.

Donna Hardy

Hi,

Here are 2 review sof an article which was a study of the bone density of vegetarians. It would be good if your could get the original articles to read.

http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj98nov/98bsci.htm
http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=524830

Here's are two good references also. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7391450
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9069160

I will keep looking for more references; see if you can do the same.

Donna Hardy

Hi,

At last a reference that may help you hypothesis:

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Researc ... eat-eaters

This is a review of a journal article that showed that vegan women lose calcium at the same ate as omnivore women, and vegans formed new bone at a faster rate than the omnivore women, even though the vegans consumed less calcium. You definitely need to find the original reference for this to look at the original data and check and see who funded the research project.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1694 ... d_RVDocSum

The reference above is a review article, which means that the authors read all of recent published articles on this topic and summarized the results. Generally, review articles are considered more significant because they include results from lots of individual studies. The review article found that vegans do have a lower bone density than dairy-consuming non-vegetarians.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1729 ... d_RVDocSum

This is a very interesting article. The authors compared bone fractures in a study of 35,000 individuals in the UK and correlated results to diet. They found that vegans had a higher incidence of bone fracture, but that the incidence was related to calcium consumption. If the vegans consumed more than 525 mg of calcium per day, their rate of bone fractures was the same as the rate for meat and fish (and presumably dairy) eaters.

Can you see the value of including literature references in your project board? How are you doing with your project?

Donna Hardy

Wow, thank you so much. I now understand what I will be doing and researching (:
Thank you for all the references, I will look for some myself now I know what I am doing.

Hi,

You are welcome. When you read through the references, you will find it's easy to be distracted. So write down your question and hypothesis, and stick to just the one question to stay on track. There are literature references that can help you, and you will have your data analysis (from your diet diary and product label data). I think you will have fun doing this project.

Donna Hardy

Source 2: Calcium knowledge, dietary calcium intake, and bone mineral content and density in young women. (n.d.). North American Journal of Psychology .

A study shows that woman who took the suggested intake of calcium had higher bone mineral density than woman who did not. Dairy products are the biggest source of calcium intake. Osteoporosis is when the mineral density in the bones is low, caused by lack of calcium. The main problem in average adults, is not knowing the recommended intake of calcium. Different food sources have different amounts of calcium, and ignorance of this is also a problem in health problems.

That would be a start?

Hi,

Yes, that is a very good start. The background literature seems to indicate that vegans have a lower bone density and are at higher risk for osteoporosis. However, it is possible to increase the bone mass and not be at higher risk for bone fracture if enough calcium is consumed.

Your experiment is designed to show that:

1. It is possible to consume a sufficient amount of calcium on a pescetarian diet
2. There are non-dairy milk sources available that will provide sufficient calcium to individuals on a pescetarian diet.

Your conclusion would be that it is possible to obtain enough calcium to avoid osteoporosis on a pescetarian diet and that calcium is available from non-dairy sources. A possible topic for a future science fair project could be that education and awareness of foods that contain calcium is important if you don't consume dairy products as part of your normal diet.


Donna Hardy

When I asked my teacher about this, I thought I would be set, but I just learned I am not allowed to do a project with humans (me) so I have gone back to your second idea about the solubility of calcium salts in the dairy and nondairy products. Questions about this: If it has a high solubility does that mean it has more calcium than something that has less solubility? And what materials would I specifically need to find the solubility of the caclium. I am off to research all of this right now, but if you have an answer, it would help a lot to be able to tell my teacher.

When I asked her again, she now says the diet option would be okay, but I would have to make up a diet that would work for a pescatarian... I'm so confused.

Hi,

It's important to follow the rules of a science fair. When working with humans, it's necessary to sign an informed consent form. You can find more information on the science buddies website under, science fair project guide>science fair project guide additional resources>scientific review committee>working with humans. Normally, you need to submit the form and get permission to do human projects in advance. I had not heard of science fairs that absolute prohibit working with humans, but I suppose this is possible. Or, perhaps your teacher thinks it is too late to submit the necessary paperwork.

But it's OK, you can still do the other half of the project. You can ask the question "do non-dairy product provide equivalent calcium as dairy food sources?" or "Can pescetarians obtain sufficient calcium from non-dairy milk sources?" You can do the survey on product labels and gather information on the quantity of calcium per serving. For the non-dairy milk sources, also note the source of calcium, e.g. calcium phosphate, calcium sulfate, calcium chloride, etc. If you look at enough product labels, you will have lots of data to analyze. You will need to look at the background literature to get more information about the solubility/availability of the calcium from different calcium salts, but this will add more substance and interest to your project.

Donna Hardy

I think I will do comparing the solubility of calcium salts used in dairy and nondair products. I am now researching what calcium salts are in soy milk. and what caclium salts are in skim milk. I will then change the ammount to find out how soluble the soy milk and skim milk are. Does that make sense? And could I find this data on the product label? My teacher has these rules(that I have understood from what she has told me) They have calcium salts at the school. No human subjects (the late paperwork makes sense but I'm not sure). It has to be an actualy experiment (which I was confused on because last year we were allowed to do research projects, but maybe its the paperwork again or something). I am sorry for my ignorance, and all this confusion between me and my science teacher, but thank you over and over and over again for all the help you have given me.

Hi,

That's great if you can do the diet survey. You are a pescetarian, so after you fill out the informed consent form, all you have to do is write down all the food and drink that you consume for a few days, and try to estimate the quantity. I would not recommend making up a diet; just eat what you normally would eat. Then use the following website to check the calcium content of all the foods you have consumed:

http--www.nal.usda.gov-fnic-foodcomp-Data-SR1 ... 17w301.pdf

You can add up the mg of calcium to get your daily total.

I would not recommend making up a diet; just eat what you normally would eat. That would be real data. You are going to answer the question, "do pescetarians consume enough calcium in their diet?" and the answer will be either yes or no; with science fair projects, there's no right answer, so it's OK if you don't consume 1000 mg of calcium. If it turns out that you consume less than 1000 mg per day, then you will have to discuss this in your conclusion section, and perhaps suggest changes that would bring your daily diet up to the 1000 mg total. It will be a great science fair project either way.

Please do double check with your teacher again.

Donna Hardy

Hi,

This is a little confusing, but I do understand now. Your science fair requires doing a lab experiment, so the ideas we have discussed don't really qualify, although otherwise, they would be good projects. I think that's what your teacher has been trying to communicate with you.

Can you check to see if you have the calcium, EDTA, and eriochrome black T available? How about a centrifuge? Please confirm what lab resources you have available.

Or do you have 2-3 pescetarian and 2-3 dairy-consuming friends available. Doing a diet survey and compiling calcium results would qualify as an experiment if you did this with a number of individuals. Although this type of project takes time; if your project is due on January 22, I don't think you will have time for this option. And you would still have the problem of the informed consent forms. When do you have to turn in your board?

Donna Hardy

Hi,

Another method of measuring calcium ions in solution is by using a calcium specific electrode with a pH meter. I checked one source and it cost $180 for the electrode, and you would have to have a pH meter to use it. Ask your teacher if she knows where you might have access to this type of electrode, which might be found in a hospital or research lab. You would want to compare the calcium ions in dairy and non-dairy milks. This would be a great lab project if you could find the equipment to borrow.

If your school doesn't have the reagents for the colorimetric calcium assay, and if you can't find a pH meter with a calcium electrode to use, you will probably not be able to do an experimental project on this topic this year. The only option for a calcium project would be if you could get permission to do the survey/research project. You can save this project for next year's science fair, but for this year, you will need to switch to a different project. Let me know if you need to do this.

Donna Hardy

I will email my teacher about the equipment, and if she doesn't have it, then I will probably just end up doing something simple from the website. And I do happen to have 2 vegetarian friends (who eat dairy) but no friends who only have nondairy, but maybe next year. Thank you for all your help, over and over again.

Hi,

I'm sorry this is not working out and I'm sorry my suggestions did not help you get this project done for this year. Good luck to you and do let us know at science buddies if there's anything else we can do to help.

Donna Hardy

Umm... this is just a clarification My school has a pH meter but not a calcium specific electrode. What reagents do need for the colorimetric assay? would have to use the meter at school, but it only measures pH. This is the general response my teacher gave me, this means I should choose another project right?

Hi,

Regular pH electrodes don't work; you need to calcium-specific electrode for your pH meter for calcium analysis. Here is the reference the colorimetric assay:

http://faculty.ccri.edu/aahughes/GenChe ... ration.pdf

Check with your teacher to see if EDTA, calcium carbonate, 12 M HCl, and Eriochrome Black T are available from your school. If not, then you definitely need to select a different project. I don't know how well this test works with milk because it's designed for water samples.

Donna Hardy