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Biomass

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:14 pm
by 5 Cent
How do you change biomass materials into a liquid? I know how to do the experiment with gas but I can't find out how to do the experiment with a liquid, or how to get the material to a liquid. Are there any web sites that give me procedures/information? :?: I also need information! :lol:

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:21 am
by deleted-42343
I think when you see the word "gas" they are referring to the type of gas that comes out of a gas pump, which is a liquid.

Check out this thread to get you started: https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... =28&t=5312

I also found the following pages which look helpful:

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html (an introduction to biodiesel)
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodies ... #homebrews (how to make biodiesel)

If you decide to do this project, make sure to be safe! A lot of the materials you use are flammable. You also wouldn't need to make a ton of biodiesel for this experiment (assuming you are not using it to run your car), so if the above procedure tells you to make a lot, you only need a water bottle sized amount.

In order to do a true actual experiment, you might want to transform one oil into biofuel and then test its properties (check out this website to see how to test a biodiesel's quality: http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodies ... ml#quality), or compare two or more biodiesels' properties.

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:34 pm
by 5 Cent
Thank You! But what I meant (which I found out) was how to change it into a liguid using fermentation. Is there an easy way to change biomass materials into biofuels? I've looked online and I haven't been able to find a site that tells me how to do it.


Regards,
5 Cent

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:53 pm
by deleted-42343
Biomass can be turned into biodiesel/biofuel. The biomass you would use for this would be plants of some kind, which are then turned into oil, and then to biofuel. So for example, you can make biodiesel from soybeans, corn, and even coconut oil!

I guess I didn't understand your original question completely. So you are just talking about ways to turn biomass to liquid in general, not necessarily related to biodiesel/biofuels? Can you be more specific?

Check out this wikipedia page for more information about biomass in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass

Manure is normally burned as a solid dry fuel (as is wood). I'm not sure if there are processes that turn it into a liquid. Some liquid fertilizer is made by adding water and extra nutrients to the manure (and I don't think all companies use actual manure for their materials). But I think you are talking about using the biomass to get energy, and I'm not sure if fertilizer is really related to that (though it helps plants survive).

Wood could be turned into oil, then some sort of liquid fuel (trees are plants, after all). But fast growing plants are probably better suited for the job.

I found something about liquid manure, but it doesn't look like it is really used for anything by itself. It just needs to be broken down safely (though I think the products of the reaction can be used for fuel, perhaps when the manure is dried). http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_biomass-manure.htm

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:00 pm
by deleted-42343
I just saw your edited reply. You can make ethanol (a liquid fuel) by using fermentation of corn.

The corn has lots of sugars, which the bacteria eat and transform into ethanol.

Check out this page for more info on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

There are many pages that describe ethanol fermentation.

Here are a couple:
http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continu ... odule2.htm
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id36.html

As for turning biomass into biofuels (using plant oils) I listed a few websites in my first reply, so take a look at those.

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:57 pm
by 5 Cent
Thank you! and you are right, I wasn't very clear on my question to start with. I still can't get how to get it to a liquid, though. I'm going to use cellulose biomass (grass, trees, corns, etc...) and, I'm not gonna lie, I understood little of how to convert the solid to a liquid. I get that I need to use fermantation, but I guess I don't know how. Do I just have to let the ex. corn, sugarcane or whatever sit in something so the bacteria can get to it? Or do I have to just have it at a certain temperature and let it boil or something? And I don't need a lot, just a small amount.

Some of my problems:
The formulas were too complicated and many of the sites gave me little description of how to do it. Do you know of any simple step by step procedures that I can follow?
Many of the materials are not avaliable, like a grinding mill so is there something simple I can do easily

If you can't find anything else, that's fine and I thank you gratefully for your time, effort, and patience.

Thank You,
5 Cent :o :D :P

Biomass to Biofuel

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:09 pm
by 5 Cent
I'm doing a project on which biomass material is the most fuel effecient. The biomass material is cellulose material (grass, trees, corn, etc...) I need simple step by step direction that I can follow so that I can use fermantation to change the solid materials to liquid fuel (biofuel). I can't do anything major to strip the starch content away from the material so I can have the sugar to use as energy (i don't have a grinding mill available).
Please help me find simple procedures to follow.

Yours Truly,
5 Cent 8)

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:12 pm
by carolinethorn
Hi 5 cent,
Maybe we can build a procedure together for your experiment by thinking about what the variables are. I can help with some of the questions you asked but there are lots of things you can still choose to do/not do to really make this your own experiment. (thats something science fair judges like to see :) )

Basically you need to break up your test biomass (corn, sugarcane beets etc) in water to make a "suspension" so that the yeast that does the fermenting has access to the nutrients in the test biomass. This doesn't have to be a high tech method - a kitchen blender would do the job. If its not completely smooth liquid that's ok but try to be consistent with all your test samples because level of blending can change the speed of fermentation.
This is probably a good point to remind you about "sample size" - how many tests you are going to do. If you do 3 beakers of each test biomass then you can average out for small differences in how well it blended or if your weighing and measuring wasn't super accurate.

So think about how you are going to keep some of your variables constant (the amount of blending would be one way)
and also about what you are changing.

Then you can try and come up with a procedure, post it and we can help work on it until you think it's ready to try.
Best of luck!
Caroline

Re: Biomass

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:11 pm
by deleted-42343
To answer your questions:

I'm sorry you are feeling a bit confused. But you have to realize, as you go out into the "real world" there are going to be tons of things that don't make sense the instant you see them. The important thing is to not give up. In general with learning, sometimes you have to read things over and over again until finally it clicks (seriously, you might need to read something 10 times until you get it or more!). Other times when you are reading something, you'll look up one word because you don't understand it, only to find that you also have to look up the words in the definition, until finally you see words that make sense. It's perfectly normal to not understand something when you haven't seen it before! But since you are in high school, you are expected to do a more advanced project, and that means you are going to have to put in some effort into studying the material until you get it. If you haven't taken many chemistry classes, then some of the vocabulary will be foreign to you and the reactions will seem difficult, but if you keep at it and keep looking up what words mean and take the reactions step by step, you WILL get it eventually. So don't give up the instant something is confusing. It is NORMAL to not understand everything :-). Even after taking 2 high school chemistry classes and 2 college classes, I didn't completely understand the transesterification reaction for biodiesel until going over it a few times, and talking to my professor.

As for transforming corn to ethanol, I'll try to explain in simpler terms.

So, plants make their own food (glucose, a sugar and a solid) using the energy of the sun, carbon dioxide (CO2), and water (photosynthesis). So, you essentially grind the corn up. The bacteria eat the glucose (sugar) in the corn. Glucose has six carbon atoms. During this fermentation process, the bacteria break the glucose down into carbon dioxide (1 carbon) and ethanol (2 carbons), but you get two of each. So you started with 6 carbon atoms in glucose, and 6 came out, because 2 molecules of ethanol and 2 molecules of carbon dioxide were formed. Ethanol at room temperature is a liquid. Glucose at room temperature is a solid. It just so happens that ethanol is a liquid, glucose is a solid, and carbon dioxide is a gas at room temperature. A chemical's melting/freezing/boiling temperature has to do with the attraction between each molecule and the bonds between atoms. So glucose has a much higher melting temperature than ethanol. Since ethanol is a different molecule than glucose, the energy needed to break or form bonds is different, too, and that affects its properties. Also keep in mind that after each step (grinding the corn, adding the bacteria,etc) the people who make ethanol would purify everything, meaning they would separate out the rest of the corn that was ground up from the ethanol and any other byproducts.

Here's the overall reaction:

C6H12O6 (Glucose - solid) → 2 C2H5OH (ethanol - liquid) + 2 CO2 (carbon dioxide - gas)

Then, when you put the ethanol in your car, the ethanol is broken down into carbon dioxide and water:

C2H5OH (ethanol - liquid) + 3 O2 (oxygen - gas) → 2 CO2 (carbon dioxide -gas) + 3 H2O (liquid)

Note how the number of atoms balances (they are the same on each side of the equation).

You don't have to do the entire process as your project. You could choose one part and only do that. For example, if you decided to go with fermentation of ethanol, you could only focus on the fermentation part. You could start with some glucose (a type of sugar) and then the bacteria, and then you would make ethanol and byproducts. So then you wouldn't need to worry about grinding corn, etc.



As for making biodiesel from oils, it actually isn't that bad compared to other advanced projects you could do. I did it as a project in my college lab class and the method to make it is pretty simple, so you would have no problem doing it as an advanced science project. The materials you would need are:

-Heater/stirrer hot plate (with a bar magnet to act as a stirrer, or if you don't have access could just use a stove and stir regularly with an egg beater or something)
-condenser (this is the hardest thing to get, you might be able to make one with water, ice and a bit of engineering)
-separator flask (or you could use a funnel with a stopper or even a water bottle)
-Methanol, KOH (could get from high school or order)
-Beakers and flasks
-Vegetable oils (soybean, sunflower, corn, etc. almost anything that is a plant and an oil should work)

That equipment is very basic and you would hopefully be able to borrow it from your high school, or make something that would do the job at home.

In my original post I referred to an old thread about biodiesel, here it is again: https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... =28&t=5312. In that thread I list some papers you might read if you are interested in doing this project. It would help you develop a procedure because you will see what others have done. Also look at my other posts again because I listed some websites that had pretty detailed instructions on what to do for both making ethanol and biodiesel. There are also tons of other websites out there if something is unclear, just type "how to make ___ (biodiesel, ethanol, etc)" in Google and tons of things pop right up. Remember, you won't understand much the first time you see it. Don't let it discourage you. Just keep reading things and look up the things you don't understand and you will get there eventually.

When you read scientific papers, here are some pages that have some tips on how to read and how to find scientific papers. You might find them helpful as you do research no matter what topic you pick:
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... aper.shtml
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... pers.shtml

Good luck and let us know if you have any more questions!

Re: Biomass to Biofuel

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:17 pm
by deleted-42343
[This post was in response to 5 cent posting a similar topic in the 6-8 grade forum, which I ended up merging with this one]

Hi 5 Cent. Please keep all your posts in one topic so we can easily keep track of them. Are you in middle school or high school, since you have now posted in both forums? This is important because we assume middle school students and high school students are at a different level of science knowledge and respond according to that level. Thanks!

Re: Biomass to Biofuel

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:03 pm
by 5 Cent
I'm sorry! I'm in high school! I just got into high school and /i realized maybe I need to step things down a notch. My science teacher said it can be something easy, so of course, I tried to find something challenging. This turned out to be too challenging but I was already too interested. So, I figured if maybe I tried to go a grade level down I might be able to make my project simplier, and easier for my classmates to understand. Sorry about the confusion, and I will stick to the high school question forum. I'm sorry! :oops:

Regards,
5 Cent

Re: Biomass

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:20 pm
by deleted-42343
No problem, don't worry about it. Now that we know you are new to high school, we can take it down a notch :-). Can you give us a better idea of your assignment? Is it supposed to be a pretty involved project that you might enter in a science fair, or is it a small project that was assigned really early? Either way, if you are interested in this topic, we can find a way to make it at your level, but still rewarding and challenging (in a good way).

By the way, I merged the topic in the 6-8 grade forum into this topic (high school forum).

Re: Biomass

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:44 pm
by 5 Cent
It is a pretty involved project, that I do want to enter in science fair! We have till January to have everything complete (report and all). So I wanted to plan on doing the experiments a few times, but as quick as possible. I wanted to do something on "green" energy /fuel, and this seemed like a cool project.
Thank you for the steps in how to take oil to a liquid. It is really helpful, and I'm actually really excited to do this project! (unlike last year when I proposed the question 'Which insulation works best: fiberglass, cellulose, or expanded polystyreen.' I think I now know more about insulation than my dad! HA) :D
Now that you know the project is invovlved (and how I'm pretty young) I need to know if you know how to build your own homemade condenser. My high school doesn't have much scientific material, and our teacher wants us to figure it out without using things from the school (why I don't know).
I have to hand in my question proposal on wednesday of next week and I was wondering if you think that this question makes any sense at all and/or is worded correctly:

:?: 'Which biomass material is most fuel efficent after it is changed into biofuel?' :?:

Thank You SOOOO Much,
5 Cent

P.S. thanks for the links, they were super helpful!

Re: Biomass

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:33 pm
by 5 Cent
oh and by the way, i was looking online and in books and i don't quite know how to test my fuel! so i can c which one is more fuel/cost effecient! please help!

thanks,
5 Cent :mrgreen:

Re: Biomass

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:56 pm
by deleted-42343
Your question is a good start, but I would be more specific. You aren't testing a huge variety of biomass (you would just be testing plant oils), so instead I would say something like:

"Which plant oil (out of the ones used in this experiment -- to be determined) produces the best quality biodiesel?"

You might want to put a note after your question explaining that after you do more research, you will have a much better idea of which plant oils you will test and how you will determine the quality of the biodiesel.

If you are asking this question, I assume you have chosen to do the plant oil/biodiesel project and NOT the corn/ethanol one?

I find it very odd that your teacher does not want you to use school materials, as some advanced projects require working in a lab for safety reasons as well as to get access to special equipment. This is not an engineering project where you would be building something, so getting access to materials already available would be very helpful (and it should not be considered "cheating" in any way).

I would ask your teacher again. He/she may not want to deal with supervising students doing the project at school. I would ask if you could borrow some materials from the school and do this at home.

If you can't get access to these supplies (the condenser mostly), I'm sure we can help you think of something.

But do ask if they have these supplies available for you to borrow/use:

-Heater/stirrer hot plate (with a bar magnet to act as a stirrer, or if you don't have access could just use a stove and stir regularly with an egg beater or something)
-condenser (this is the hardest thing to get, you might be able to make one with water, ice and a bit of engineering)
-separator flask (or you could use a funnel with a stopper or even a water bottle)
-Methanol, KOH (could get from high school or order)
-Beakers and flasks

The most important things are the heater/stirrer hot plate (and bar magnet), methanol, KOH, and condenser. It is likely your school has the first three things.

One thing to keep in mind, if you do end up doing this project at home, you will want good ventilation. So if you do this over a stove, you'll want to open lots of windows to ensure that you aren't breathing in methanol. A fume hood would be ideal, but if your teacher doesn't want you to do anything at school, you will have to make due at home.

As for your last question, I would try reading those papers I mentioned in that thread I linked to. It would give you an idea of what data other people have gotten, as well as some ideas of how to test the quality of the biodiesel. Here are those papers:

Timothy P. Durrett, Christoph Benning and John Ohlrogge. “Plant triacylglycerols as
feedstocks for the production of biofuels.” The Plant Journal. (2008) 54:593–607.

H. Sanli and M. Canakci “Effects of Different Alcohol and Catalyst Usage on Biodiesel
Production from Different Vegetable Oils.” Energy & Fuels. (2008) 22:2713–2719.

De Oliveira, Débora, et. al. “Optimization of alkaline transesterification of soybean oil
and castor oil for biodiesel production.” Applied Biochemistry and Biotechnology.
(2005). 122.1-3: 553-560.

The first one can be found here: http://www.orau.gov/algae2008/breakouts ... al2008.pdf
That is a summary of converting plant oils to biodiesels, so it is a good first paper to read.

For ideas on how to find more papers and how to read them, read these pages:
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... aper.shtml
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... pers.shtml

You won't know the efficiency/cost ratio until you do the project, but you could give a summary on what other people have found. You could look at how much different oils cost at a grocery store per liter, and then look at which ones were considered to make the best quality biodiesel, and why.

Re: Biomass

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:25 pm
by 5 Cent
Thank you sooooooooooo much for everything, you were such a help!!!!! :D :) :wink: :mrgreen:

Thanks From The Bottom Of My Heart,
5 Cent 8) :lol: