Pretreatment Flux Rates for Nanofiltration

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:57 am

Hi.

What is the difference between the size of a nanoparticle and an atom. What actually makes something nanotechnology besides the size? Is it just the froming of a small machine?

Thanks Andrew Palosaari

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:41 pm

Hi Andrew,
Nano-technology does not necessarily involve machines. Nanoparticles such as titanium oxide are materials rather than machines. A good general definition is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology
That article tells you the size of particles used in nanotechnology. To answer your first question, try an internet search for "size of an atom nanometers".
Chris

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:57 am

But is the nanoparticle composed of many atoms?

Thanks,
Andrew

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:10 am

Yes. If you look up that info on the sizes of nanoparticles versus the size of atoms you will get a sense of the different scales of size.

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:39 am

Hi,

I've been trying to compose a science experiment on the effects a nanotechnology filter on microbes in a marsh. Does anyone know which microbes are beneficial and which one are harmful in water. I've done some searching and can't seem to find much.

Thanks,
Andrew

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:43 am

Also does anyone know of any professors working with nanotechnology water filters that I may be able to test?

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:44 pm

Hi Andrew,
I have combined your new thread with your previous thread so that the experts will have an easier time following your project development.

Environmental microbiology is a very broad topic. Whether microbes are "beneficial" or "harmful" depends on the problem you are trying to solve. If you want to minimize concentrations of nitrate (NO3) then denitrifying bacteria could be called "beneficial". If you would like to maintain oxygen rich water, then any microbe using O2 for respiration (including many denitrifying bacteria) could be called "harmful". Our experts can offer more specific assistance if you will tell us more about your project, including the scientific question and hypothesis. If you do not yet have a scientific question or hypothesis, I would recommend taking a look at the information on this web page and pages linked from there:
http://www.sciencebuddies.com/science-f ... l?From=tab

I know of some researchers working at University of California in Davis, CA who are working on nanofilter technology.
http://www.chms.ucdavis.edu/faculty/stroeve/

I hope that helps. Looking forward to hearing more about your project.
Chris

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:49 pm

Thank You,

I was thinking about some organisms that may eat harmful bacteria or perhaps provide food for other endangered organisms, though the ones you mentioned are great too. Right now I am trying to plan a (possibly multi-year) experiment on the topic of nanotechnology and water treatment to determine the most efficient and least environmentally harmful nanotechnology water filtration method for an urban environment like Madrona Marsh Preserve in Torrance. I am open to any other nanotechnology water treatment topics too though. I have been thinking about possibly getting a nanofilter from professor working with the material to treat water for an urban environment and testing its effects on microorganisms in an urban environment such as the Madrona Marsh Preserve, Torrance, CA. The filter would then be accepted or rejected in this environment.

Andrew

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:56 pm

Oh, Chris

How do you change your status of were you are in your project and when your due date is? Must I re register to change my status?

Andrew

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:33 am

Andrew,
To change the displayed status for your project, click on "user control panel" on the top left of your screen. Then click on the "profile" tab. There is a pull-down menu on that page to change your status.

Your topic sounds very interesting and open for all sort of good possibilities. I would recommend developing a formal scientific question of one or two sentences that you can use as a starting point to do your background research. That will help to keep you focused as you navigate the numerous topics in wetlands science, microbiology, and nanotechnology. When you have formulated a specific question, please post it here so that we can further assist with your research plans.

Thanks,
Chris

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:34 pm

Hi,

I've been doing some thinking on my science experiment and have decided to go into a slightly different direction in water treatment. I am thinking about determining the appropriate prefiltration system in order to minimize the fouling of a nanofilter. I will determine flux rates* for the prefilter(s) for vernal Madrona Marsh Preserve water samples from different parts of the marsh to determine their feasibility in this environment.
The Madrona Marsh Preserve is located in Torrance, CA and is feed by storm runoff from the surrounding urban/semi-commercial area. It has two main inlets: directly off the street and off the street after it has settled in a 84ft. deep sump built to hold water in case of a 100 year storm. Water is occasionally pumped out of the sump to feed the marsh. In the sump, sedimentation occurs in the water removing most of the large sand particles. Directly from the road the water would be more polluted. I can also determine the pretreatment filters for each of these inlets.

*Flux rates are basically membrane preformance. I will be using the same techniques as the research book "Optimization of Membrane Treatment for Direct and Clarifed Water FIltration" (Igot this book from the UCI library). It shows flux rate formulas and the method testing: as time passes an electronic balance weighs how much water is comes out of being pushed through a membrane. When less water is pushed through the membrane with equal PSI flux rates drop showing the that membrane has fouled with material such as total organic carbon.

I still must determine exactly which pretreatment membrane(s) to test in order to determine the appropriate filtration system to be applied at Madrona Marsh.
My goal is to get advice from a professor that is working in this field to mentor my project. I am strongly open to any advice suggestions regarding my project or references on pretreatment for nanofilters. Anything said would be appreciated.

Thank You,
Andrew Palosaari

P.S The following message is directed to Chris G, the moderator. Would you mind changing my main subject of my thread from "Nanotech & the Atom" to "Pretreatment Flux Rates for Nanofiltration."
Thanks

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:40 pm

Hi,

I've been doing some thinking on my science experiment on water treatment. I am thinking about determining the appropriate prefiltration system in order to minimize the fouling of a nanofilter. I will determine flux rates* for the prefilter(s) for vernal Madrona Marsh Preserve water samples from different parts of the marsh to determine their feasibility in this environment.
The Madrona Marsh Preserve is located in Torrance, CA and is feed by storm runoff from the surrounding urban/semi-commercial area. It has two main inlets: directly off the street and off the street after it has settled in a 84ft. deep sump built to hold water in case of a 100 year storm. Water is occasionally pumped out of the sump to feed the marsh. In the sump, sedimentation occurs in the water removing most of the large sand particles. Directly from the road the water would be more polluted. I can also determine the pretreatment filters for each of these inlets.

*Flux rates are basically membrane preformance. I will be using the same techniques as the research book "Optimization of Membrane Treatment for Direct and Clarifed Water FIltration" (Igot this book from the UCI library). It shows flux rate formulas and the method testing: as time passes an electronic balance weighs how much water is comes out of being pushed through a membrane. When less water is pushed through the membrane with equal PSI flux rates drop showing the that membrane has fouled with material such as total organic carbon.

I still must determine exactly which pretreatment membrane(s) to test in order to determine the appropriate filtration system to be applied at Madrona Marsh.
My goal is to get advice from a professor that is working in this field to mentor my project. I am strongly open to any advice suggestions regarding my project or references on pretreatment for nanofilters. Anything said would be appreciated.

Thank You,
Andrew Palosaari

MelissaB · Post by **MelissaB** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:27 am

Andrew,

I just wanted to say that this sounds like an excellent project with clear real-world applications. Unfortunately, I don't work with nanofilters so I don't have any advice for you in terms of your project. However, I would recommend that you contact your local university/college and see if any of the professors or graduate students there are working on similar projects. If they are, you might ask them if they would be willing to sit down and talk with you about your project and/or mentor you.

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:38 pm

Thanks
Any contacts would be appreciated.
Andrew Palosaari

deleted-2131 · Post by **deleted-2131** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:00 pm

Andrew,

As ChrisG mentioned in an earlier post, we ask that you please keep all questions about your project on a single thread. This helps the Experts better help you. You need to abide by the rules of the Forums to receive help here. Please, keep you questions on one topic. I have combined this topic with your other one.

Thank you.

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:43 pm

I'm sorry. Would it be all right if I asked more specific questions with a different thread so scientists don't get bombarded with other side questions from the begging of my experiment.

tomorrow when I make a similar thread will you please delete this one.

Thank you,
Andrew Palosaari

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:29 pm

Andrew, the Site Administrators will give you the final word, but my understanding is that it is best to keep (and not delete) all of your posts for a particular project in one thread so that the experts can see the history of your project development and what sort of help has already been provided. If you need to ask for help with several different things at once, I would recommend making a concise list of questions and requests. Every time you post, you can re-post your list, adding new questions and dropping old ones that have already been answered.

For faculty contacts, you could start by looking though this list to see who is working on issues related to wetlands:
http://www.eng.uci.edu/directory?dept=cee
This one in particular might be a good start:
http://www.eng.uci.edu/user/53

Good luck!
Chris

Post by **scibudadmin** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:24 pm

scrubjay,

ChrisG's comments are spot on. We typically don't delete topics from the Forums unless they are spam, contain offensive material, or are duplicates. The reason for this is that many, many students, parents, and teachers search through the archives of the Forums and look at the responses that have been made. These individuals might not always post questions themselves, but they use the discussion that has taken place on the boards as a resource. You should go ahead and keep your questions on this topic. Like Chris says, Experts who are new to the topic do like to read over the previous posts to get their bearings--even if it seems that the previous posts are not about the subject of current discussion.

It looks like you're getting some great help and that you are asking some excellent questions. Good luck!

Science Buddies Staff

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:42 pm

OK, but how do you change the main title of the thread if the experiment objective changes? Also how do you change you project question and where you are in your project timeline when it changes over time? Its on the right hand side.

Thanks

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:54 pm

To change the main title, you can ask a moderator to edit the title. If you start a truly new project, completely unrelated to previous posts, I believe it is OK to start a new thread. To edit your project timeline, go to "user control panel" -> "profile" -> "edit profile"

Don't worry too much about those operational details. If you keep posting here and continue to give updates about your progress and questions, the experts get to know your project well and they will do their best to help you.

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:10 pm

Hi,
This is a little hard to find on the internet. What are the pollutants of concern when dealing with urban vernal marsh water. Which contaminants should be removed and brought down to what levels?

Andrew

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:30 am

Hi Andrew,
The list of potential pollutants of concern is quite extensive. Here is the Environmental Protection Agency's "Current National Recommended Water Quality Criteria"
http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/criteri ... index.html
In addition, there are many "emerging contaminants", pesticides, and other substances that aren't included on that list but are still a cause of some concern.
Chris

deleted-71712 · Post by **deleted-71712** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:37 am

Hi Andrew,

(ChrisG covered some of this, but I'd already typed it, so here goes.)

Which contaminants should be removed and brought down to what levels?

This depends on the intended use of the water. For example, you could choose to use the EPA's drinking water regulations as a goal:

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html

A few things I would point out: (1) Water often has to be filtered through many stages, so your system doesn't have to do everything -- it might even be most useful if it removes one contaminant really well. It might be a good idea to test pure water with a contaminant of interest intentionally added, just in case other contaminants interfere with your filter's function. If that's the case, it could always be used after those interfering contaminants have been removed by a different filter. (2) As you can see at the link below, many contaminants that aren't yet formally regulated are being considered. Just because something isn't on the regulated list doesn't mean that it can't have an impact on health; there's some controversy and regulations are continually revised.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/regs.html

What are the pollutants of concern when dealing with urban vernal marsh water.

To evaluate the effectiveness of your filtration technique, you're going to have to come up with a method of testing the amount of contaminant(s) of interest in the water -- both before and after, because even if you find published levels of contamination in your marsh, they will almost certainly vary depending on the time of year, recent weather, where exactly you sample the water, etc. So, if you absolutely can't find any relevant literature, you could do some of this testing before you make a final decision on a target contaminant and other aspects of your experimental design. This testing is something that you'll likely need the help of a research lab to do, so if you haven't already started contacting professors, go for it!

You might try searches that include terms like ppm, ppb, mg/L, or other units used in those tables to report contaminant levels and/or specific contaminants that you're interested in. You could also search for "vernal marsh" or even just "marsh" if you can't find info about something as specific as "urban vernal marsh".

Amanda

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:03 pm

Thanks

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:57 pm

After talking with my mentor at Madrona Marsh, I have decided to move in the direction of removing Sodium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, and and phosphates from the water. I'm planning to do some testing at Associated Laboratories in Torrance, CA. My mentor isn't quite sure which type of phosphate we will be trying to remove. PO4- ...PO4-3???..... Which phosphate type? Once I figure out what to test for---test it--determine what levels are acceptable--determine main membrane----do flux experiments for prefilters!

Thanks
Andrew

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:58 pm

Also does anyone know any good professors working with membrane filtration that would be willing to mentor my main experiment?

Thank you,
Andrew

deleted-71447 · Post by **deleted-71447** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:42 am

The type of phosphate most commonly reported in water quality studies is orthophosphate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric ... ophosphate
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/basin/data/BACT/info/TP.html

For a possible mentor, I would recommend that you contact Stanley Grant.
http://www.eng.uci.edu/user/53

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:36 pm

Hi,

I have narrowed down my high school science research project to determining the appropriate pretreatment system in order to minimize fouling for a nanofilter in an urban vernal marsh environment. I plan to test possible microfiltration and/or ultrafiltration membranes(1) for the pretreatment of a nanofilter.

1. Several membrane manufactures were identified in ref. (1). Could you please put me in contact a membrane producer that has appropriate microfiltration and ultrafiltraton membranes that I could use in my experiment?

2. I am thinking about using a filtration module from "Pall Corporation" Do you have any recomendations regarding a selection of an inexpensive filtration module?

Thank you,
Andrew Palosaari

References:
1. Samer Adham et al., Optimization of Membrane Treatment for Direct and Clarified Water Filtration (Awwa Research Foundation, American Water Works Association, IWA Publishing, 2006).

scrubjay · Post by **scrubjay** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:45 pm

Again does anyone know any organizations that would be willing to provide membranes for my experiment.
Thanks

deleted-71712 · Post by **deleted-71712** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:22 am

Scrubjay,

I think your best bet is to contact a professor at a nearby university who works with filtration membranes. (You could try someone at any university, but if they're close enough you might be able to visit to get some hands-on help and maybe use some of their equipment.) ChrisG recommended one in a previous post, but you could find others either through a search engine or by going to the websites of appropriate departments (Chemical Engineering, Materials Science, and maybe Ecology would be good starting points) at nearby universities and looking at faculty research interests.

Emailing a professor might be intimidating, but most of them really would be happy to help you -- especially since you have done a great deal of background research and have a specific idea about what you'd like to do. The majority of professors enjoy involving students in their research, and in addition, it 'looks good' for them to spend some time doing that when they apply for grants, etc. I would suggest a subject like "nanofiltration membrane -- high school science project", and you can always say that you'd appreciate being redirected to a more appropriate person if you aren't sure that their research is related enough to your plans. After introducing yourself, include a few sentences about your plan, making what you need help with as specific as possible, and have ready a longer write-up to send if you receive a positive response.

Best wishes,
Amanda