Necessary to have a mentor for ISEF?

[JoLee]

Hi sciencebuddies,

I really want to do something in the biotechnology/medical field, but I feel like that, in order for my project to be a candidate in the isef, I would have to seek a mentor.

What topics, which are advanced enough to possible win isef, and without the aid of a mentor would work out??

I'm really interested on working with c elegans, or other orgasnims. Could i work with c elegans in my home? But then again, how can i generate data when i don't have gene-sequencing technology, chemicals,etc?

Very frustrated,

jolee

[deleted-140482]

Hi JoLee,

While I don't think it is absolutely necessary to have a mentor to do a project that could win ISEF, it could be very helpful, especially in the biotechnology/medical field that you are interested in. Certainly, working with C. elegans, acquiring chemicals and other reagents, sequencing genes, etc. all mostly will require that you have a mentor. Is there some reason you are opposed to working with a mentor? I'm including the link to our article on how to find a mentor, which might help you look for someone that can work with you. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... tors.shtml

If you really have your heart set on working without a mentor, then your best bet might be to do something a little more informatics based. There is a lot of information available online these days, including sequencing of genes and proteins, protein structures, etc. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov is a good place to look at this) Maybe you could design a project that involves looking up and analyzing some of this available information. That can still make a very interesting project if you have the right hypothesis.

I hope this helps, and please keep posting in this forum if you need more help. Other experts may have a different point of view that can help you.

JMP

[JoLee]

It's not that I'm opposed. Rather, I'm afraid that if I email mentors now, they'll refuse me because it is too late or something?
Similar responses had come in the past.

Do you think there would be a mentor (I live in the Detroit, MI area) out there willing to work with me on a project that is due the end of March?

Also, I would like to have a mentor work on a topic i'm interested in, but I heard that you had to work on whatever the mentor's working on currently (from my science teacher)? Is that true?

Thank you,

[JoLee]

Sorry, I meant that the project was due Feb. 15th. 2014 But SRC forms, if necessary, are due Dec. 4th 2013 into the PO Box.

I had been working on an science project before, but I am not authorized to use the data (i am not a researcher, and i am not yet 18) i would need the patients' consent. Do you think i can continue to work on this project, even without the data, and just describe the conclusion?

[amyC]

Hi JoLee - Looking ahead to ISEF and wanting to do a project to make it to ISEF is great as an objective! JMP gave you some good feedback on your initial questions. I have also reached out to one of our Experts here in the forums who has ISEF experience, so you may get some response from him and others as well.

One thing to consider is that many projects that make it to ISEF are ones that are started the spring or summer before. So as you consider what you might work on, it is important to keep the timeline in mind. You may find that you want to do a project this year that will extend into something that might be appropriate for ISEF the following year.

In terms of mentors, probably about 50% of the students that go to ISEF work with a mentor. (The number of students whose projects win who worked with mentors is higher.) But if you have not already contacted possible mentors, I think you are going to run into a timing issue.

Amy
Science Buddies

[JoLee]

Thanks for your insight Amy!

Yes, I should mention that I had been working on my original experiment with a mentor since July on autism, but since the mentor told me recently that I am not authorized to use the mri data without the patients' consent (i'm neither a researcher nor 18yrs). So i think i either have to find a different mentor, think of an experiment I can do myself at home, or present what i had been working on over the summer, with no data?

Is that possible? To present in isef without data? Just the conclusion?

Thanks,

[deleted-2131]

Hi JoLee,

Kudos to you for setting your sights on the Intel ISEF. It's a very worthwhile goal.

I competed in Intel ISEF for three consecutive years, and I won a number of awards, all without having a formal, long-term mentor. I had help from a number of scientists, but it was all very piecemeal. One person helped me with my experiments; another helped me make thin sections. Still other people helped me analyze the composition of my samples, while another person helped me make maps of chemical variations in my samples. Another person helped me with statistical analysis, and yet another person helped me analyze the composition of some different materials. In just one year, I counted 16 adults (besides my science teacher) who helped me with various aspects of my project. There were other people in other years that came into the picture. But, my high school science teacher was the only continuity I had from the adults I got involved in my project.

While my teacher was exceptionally helpful, caring, and dedicated (I really couldn't have done it without her support), I would have loved to have had a mentor who had helped me throughout the whole process. Not someone to hold my hand and walk me step-by-step, but someone I could turn to for advice when I had questions and for guidance when I was writing and presenting my research. I suggest finding a mentor if you can. It's not essential--you can still do well without one--but finding a mentor will be exceedingly helpful.

Now, before going further, let me answer your question about presenting a project without data, just the conclusions. Don't do it. The project won't do well, and there are ethical aspects to consider (see the "Ethics Statement" at the following URL: https://student.societyforscience.org/r ... l-projects).

As I read your posts in this thread, it sounds like part of the problem you are having with your mentor relates to his or her understanding of the Intel ISEF rules. If you haven't already, please take the time to read these rules in their entirety. Make sure you understand them (see links below).
https://student.societyforscience.org/r ... l-projects
https://student.societyforscience.org/r ... and-adults
https://student.societyforscience.org/h ... rticipants

Once you have done so, set up a time to discuss them with your mentor. Send him or her links to the rules (or give your mentor a printed copy), but be able to explain the rules yourself. He or she may not have time to read them on his or her own; that's why it’s important for you to understand the rules and explain them. Based on my experience it's crucial to have the adults you work with up-to-speed on the Intel ISEF rules. For example, it sounds like you are working with human subjects, and there are specific rules that you need to follow when doing research that involves human subjects (see the "human-participants" link).

As you hopefully know after reading the rules associated with the "human-participants" link, informed consent is an important part of research involving human subjects. That rule applies to Intel ISEF science fair projects, as well as to research scientists. (It’s the law, not just a rule.) So, your mentor is right to be worried about informed consent. However, if you read the last bullet point under the "exempt studies" heading of the Human Participants rules, notice that there is an exception for de-identified data. It may be worth taking to your mentor (after showing and explaining the Intel ISEF rules) to see if you can get the data in a de-identified format. I don’t know enough about exactly what you are doing to say if this has any legs or not, but it’s worth a shot.

I can definitely empathize with "mentor rejection", when you get an email saying they can't help you (which may or may not be terse and, occasionally, slightly insulting). I definitely got my fair share of those. I received many more "no" replies than "yes". (As a side note - when I was applying to PhD programs, I was admitted to a program specifically to work with a professor who sent me a "no" response when I was looking for a mentor. I didn't remind the professor, of course, but it gave me a laugh.)

I got the best response when I emailed a potential mentor outlining a specific plan. In other words, a specific question, hypothesis, and explanation of what type of help I needed to carry out my experimental plan. Essentially, I sent them a copy of the research plan that accompanies form 1A. This approach always led to a more positive response than if I just sent a cold turkey email with blanket request for help. For this approach to work, you need to do some research on potential mentors so that you know the person you are reaching out to can, in fact, help you with what you need help with.

The approach I outlined in the previous paragraph works if you already have a specific research project in mind. If you are looking for a mentor without already having a specific project in mind, I suggest researching you potential mentor to find out what their research interests are (often their university webpage will have a blurb about research interests). When you find someone whose work interests you, do some research on the topic of interest. You'll need to dig deep so that when you email the potential mentor you know what you are talking about. Once you've done that, send the potential mentor an email explaining the kinds of questions you are interested in, the fact that you are working on a project for the Intel ISEF (you may need to explain what the Intel ISEF is), and that you think they would be a good mentor for you, based on their research interests. An informed student with a plan will always get a better response (or at least better odds of a better response) than a student with a blanket request for help. Don’t make the email too lengthy, but show the person you are emailing that you’ve thought about what you are saying and want to do. And please proofread/spellcheck your email!

My advice would be this: if you can’t get de-identified data from the work you’ve been doing, set your sights on Intel ISEF 2015. The 2014 fair is too close to find a new mentor and develop a new ISEF-caliber project. ISEF-quality projects take time. That's part of why Intel ISEF rules allow you to present 12 consecutive months of research conducted over the previous 15 months. (i.e., you could present 12 months of research at Intel ISEF 2015 that started in January 2014 and lasted until December 2014). Since you can start working on an Intel ISEF 2015 project as early as January 2014, now is the time to be planning for that ISEF. You'll need to stay on top of the rules so that if you need SRC or IRB pre-approval you get it before starting your research. You have a mentor who you've been working with. Sit down with him or her, explain the Intel ISEF rules as I've discussed, and work with him or her to plan how you can continue the work you've been doing (or modify it, as needed) so you can use it in your science fair project for Intel ISEF 2015. That gives you time to make sure both you and your mentor are on the same page. If after you have this conversation with your current mentor, it looks like it just won't work out, then work on finding a new mentor. You will still have enough time to find a new mentor and get whacking at a project for the 2015 fair.

Happy to dialog about any other questions you have!

[deleted-132180]

Hi Jolee,

The experts have all given you some really excellent advice! I would like to provide some of my insight as well. I think that it always won't hurt to have a mentor to guide you through your project, especially if you are starting a project about a subject that you don't know much about. Your mentor will have the expertise to guide you towards a question for which experiments to test your hypothesis is feasible. Also, it's not always the case that when you get a mentor, you have to do your project on whatever your mentor is working on--it all really is up to your mentor. Some mentors prefer you to work with them on their current projects, while others are more open to branching out on certain aspects of their project--you should definitely discuss this issue with any potential mentors to see what their standpoint is. Try e-mailing local university labs that do research that interests you and see if they would be able to take you on as a mentee to take on a more long-term project.

Best of luck!

Connie