hhamodat wrote:i was just checking the website of Aspirin and it says that the expected time for it to dissolve is 2-4 HOURS! I thought way less- well that means I should have waited and not given up. Is that the average time of pills to dissolve? This project might take longer then i expected.
Well i hope i have some positive things coming up becaue everything has been a downfall so far. oh well! i'll have my hopes up!
Hayam
I'm not surprised the hot vinegar smelled- I've made pickles and you boil vinegar and the whole house smells! This should also warn you that you need to do your HCl heating in a hood- if breathing vinegar makes you sick, imagine what breathing HCl will do.
Non-medical or inactive ingredients are filler. You may want to check and see if the fillers are soluble. Some may not dissolve, but it doesn't matter because the aspirin or whatever is... so once the pill breaks up, the meds can get out. Oh, and remember that the inactive ingredients will change from brand to brand.
2-4 hours is for the whole pill... I would think that your crushed pill should be faster. Obviously, zzzzdoc's pill dissolved quite quickly in a small volume. Your pill didn't, so I think that is a good sign that this experiment will be interesting. Some pills are much different that others.
What type of pill did you try? Some of the long lasting pills (like the ones that work for 12 hours) are designed to dissolve slowly...
I replied on the other thread and i think i got the same results as zzzzdoc. As for the filler- it doesn't say online if it is soluble so how can i find out if i can't call the companies? For heating the HCl- my teacher said that if i heat it or not it will give me the same results because if a tablet dissolves faster not heated it will dissolve fastest heated. But I'm not sure if i can get a fume hood so it might be better to just not heat it. What's your opinion? Thanks a bunch!
hhamodat wrote:I replied on the other thread and i think i got the same results as zzzzdoc. As for the filler- it doesn't say online if it is soluble so how can i find out if i can't call the companies? For heating the HCl- my teacher said that if i heat it or not it will give me the same results because if a tablet dissolves faster not heated it will dissolve fastest heated. But I'm not sure if i can get a fume hood so it might be better to just not heat it. What's your opinion? Thanks a bunch!
Hayam
Generally things do dissolve faster in heated solutions... it is probably okay to do this unheated, but just be aware that you are making this assumption (about the influence of hear). If you cannot get a fume hood, you absolutely should not heat the HCl.
I would try the internet for information about the inactive ingredients. Also, in the US, the FDA regulates these materials, so you might be able to call someone there. But, see if the information is on the web first.
What did you mean when you said the companies said you were out of the area?
Also, you should be recording all these "pre-experiments" in a notebook. The judges will like to see this info as well on how you developed the project.
I tried calling the company of Aspirin and an operator came on and this "sorry you call is out of the area" I guess it's because I don't live in the US i live in Canada. Maybe that's why i'm not sure. however, the website mentioned all the inactive ingredients just not the precentage. So i'm going to try weighing the pills as soon as possible to see the amount of inactive ingredients.
My friend told me that it's possible to make my own fume hood by using the fan of the stove and putting plastic around me- i'm not sure if it would work? But I don't want to take the chance!
As for the notebook- should i print out all the topics and posts to add for my refrence? All the things that the experts helped me with? would that be one of the things as developing the project?
I tried calling the company of Aspirin and an operator came on and this "sorry you call is out of the area" I guess it's because I don't live in the US i live in Canada. Maybe that's why i'm not sure. however, the website mentioned all the inactive ingredients just not the precentage. So i'm going to try weighing the pills as soon as possible to see the amount of inactive ingredients.
My friend told me that it's possible to make my own fume hood by using the fan of the stove and putting plastic around me- i'm not sure if it would work? But I don't want to take the chance!
As for the notebook- should i print out all the topics and posts to add for my refrence? All the things that the experts helped me with? would that be one of the things as developing the project?
Thanks for your help!
You should google for the brand and canada. For example, tylenol and canada gives this website: http://www.tylenol.ca/english/index.asp
and it tells you how to contact them. Many companies will have different phone numbers and websites for different countries. Also, you could try emailing... they might not know that you are "out of area"
You can include the suggestions that we've made in your notebook, but don't use us for a reference. Anything factual you need to look up on your own. Consider us like you would your friend who told you about making your own hood (don't do this by the way- the exhaust of your oven isn't as strong as a hood, and the plastic might be decomposed by the acid fumes)- we give you advice (hopefully good advice, since we are all scientists), but we are not an encyclopedia. This is why people gave you many different ideas on the volumes to use (for example). You understand what I am saying? I'm not sure I'm being clear... My coworkers give me scientific advice all the time. I acknowledge them in my papers by saying "Thanks to Dr. So and So for useful discussions on this topic" or "Dr. So and So inspired this work"- but I do all the actual research and do the experiments and read the books. Even if the advice they give isn't good (like the home built hood), it still helps me (you) to think about the project and figure out what needs to be done.
I'm not using Tylenol but i'm using generic Acetaminophen- do you know if this has a website? I tried searching but it only gave me websites that talk about it but not the offical website. I'll try for the rest and see if i can contact them.
I'll add all the names of the people who helped me in the awknowledgments but as for the notebook- should I include some advise? Or just what i did?
I'm thinking that i don't need anymore HCl because if I dilute it i'll have about 250 ml which I can easily do 10 ml for each pill. So i think i have everything solved out except for the filler.
Our stomach has more water then HCl i think so i can pour 125ml of HCl to like 175 ml of water which would give me around 15 ml of fluid for each trial and each pill. That way i think my results would be correct? I still need to find a magnetic stirrer which I can't find. Can I use a blender?
OK, I'm able to read this thread again. Let's see if I can help with some of these answers.
1.) You will do better contacting companies that product the name branded product for information, not the generic companies. Long explanation, but the original companies were the ones who did all the research on it.
2.) Enteric coated Aspirin is made to dissolve more slowly, and to dissolve later in the GI tract to avoid causing ulcers (doesn't work, but it was a good idea). You need to you good old-fashioned normal aspirin.
3.) Heating the solution greater than 37 degrees Celcius wouldn't make any biological sense. The body is roughly at that temperature. I would use that to simulate the stomach. And as Louise said, most solids dissolve better at higher temperatures.
4.) You could check online for the MSDS sheets for all of the filler substances. They ought to have data for their solubility, I would think.
5.) As to the amounts of each specific filler substance, I'm not sure it is important for your experiment. It's the total pill weight minus the amount of active ingredient. Again, whether or not the filler dissolves is not important to the absorption of the medication by the body.
I would set some arbitrary standard of dissolution, and use that as an endpoint. ? Intensity of light that is transmitted through the solution (undissolved blocks light (cloudy), dissolved lets light through(clear)). % of the solution that can pass through filter paper. I'm sure you can think of a million other endpoints.
6.) Record these pre-experiments in your notebook as Louise has said. This is part of the science, and part of your total experiment. You are gathering information, albeit in an experimental, not book, fashion.
7.) Most pharmaceutical companies have representatives / facilities in all industrialized countries. Try looking for a Bayer facility in Canada. McNeil Consumer Healthcare Division of McNeil PPC for both Motrin (Ibuprofen), and Tylenol (Acetominophen).
8.) As far as the stomach having more water than acid (certainly true after you drink a glass of water), that is certainly not true much of the time. Just standardize on a specific pH solution, and pick a volume of that acid solution.
Oh, and most pills take about an hour to start working. You can assume that a large reason for that is the time it takes for the pill to dissolve in the stomach (there are many other pharmacokinetic reasons, but let's keep it simple).
Here, from Bayer's Canadian website, is their contact info:
General Information
Bayer HealthCare
77 Belfield Road
Toronto, Ontario
M9W 1G6
Tel: (416) 248-0771 or 1-800-622-2937
Email: [email protected]
Drug Safety & Medical Information
For inquiries regarding Bayer products in Canada, please contact one of the corresponding Drug Safety & Medical Information departments below. Please note that matters regarding prescribing information or your health should be discussed with your healthcare professional.
Consumer Care (non-prescription products)
Phone: 1-800-265-7382
-------------------
For McNeil Consumer Healthcare:
Call Toll Free: 1 800 265-7323 (8 AM to 8 PM EST, Monday to Friday)
Fax: 1 (519) 826-6205
Postal Address:
TYLENOL* Information Centre
McNeil Consumer Healthcare
890 Woodlawn Road West
Guelph, Ontario N1K 1A5
There's also a link on their website for career opportunities. After you finish your experiment, give them a call. They're probably hiring.
I'm not using Tylenol but i'm using generic Acetaminophen- do you know if this has a website? I tried searching but it only gave me websites that talk about it but not the offical website. I'll try for the rest and see if i can contact them.
I'll add all the names of the people who helped me in the awknowledgments but as for the notebook- should I include some advise? Or just what i did?
I'm thinking that i don't need anymore HCl because if I dilute it i'll have about 250 ml which I can easily do 10 ml for each pill. So i think i have everything solved out except for the filler.
Thanks
Hayam
The maker of the generic drugs must also be listed on the package. zzzzdoc is correct that the name brand companies are the ones who've done most of the research, but I'm not sure if generics have to have the same formulations of inactive ingredients. Certainly the active ingredient must be indentical, and certain performance characterisitcs must be met, but I'm not sure that the inert ingredients are part of the specification. I had assumed that they were, but then read something about thyroid medication that lead me to believe that they were not.
In a notebook, I think it is fine to say... "It was suggested to me that I try experiment x to test y because it is important for reason Z " and then explain how you did the experiment. You don't need to include every word we've written tho.
I just got off the phone with the canadian company of acetaminophen. I explained my project and he said that for the most part if i use HCl it should dissolve completely but there might be the case of some particles left. It shouldn't have that much effect on my project though. He also said to do the weight measuring like you have so I will try to do that. He told me if i want more information i should call the company because some brands may differ. For the most part-it should be around dissolved completely or a bit of particles.
hhamodat wrote:So should i ask the companies exactly the weight of the filler and the percentage or what exactly should i be asking them?
These are good questions. Also you could ask about how well the different fillers dissolve. You could ask them about how they test too.
Ask the most important questions first. Some people will be very willing to talk with you and will explain in detail their work or perhaps even provide feedback on your procedures. Others may be busier, so then you wouldn't want to ask a lot of questions. Ask them if they are willing to answer more detailed questions or to talk about your project.
I'm not seeing that the filler has an extreme effect on my project. Like zzzzdoc said as long as the medicine is out of the pill what happens to it after doesn't really matter to my project. As long as most of it has dissolved and the little particles can't dissolve for about 1 minute- i'll take that it has dissolved to it's extenct. But about the filler- i can add that in my report explaining different aspects of my project!
I'm not seeing that the filler has an extreme effect on my project. Like zzzzdoc said as long as the medicine is out of the pill what happens to it after doesn't really matter to my project. As long as most of it has dissolved and the little particles can't dissolve for about 1 minute- i'll take that it has dissolved to it's extenct. But about the filler- i can add that in my report explaining different aspects of my project!
I agree with everything you said, however, if something doesn't dissolve, how do you know if it is filler or medicine? That is the only reason you would want to consider this aspect of the project.
hhamodat wrote:How would i know that's it filler? I don't think that the companies can tell me that, can they?
Well, if a company told you that they used an insoluble filler or if they used a higher percentage of filler and you saw more particles, you might think that it might be related to this. This probably is outside the scope of your experiment, but it is a factor that could effect your results, so the more you know about this, the better off you are.
Good luck! Maybe it is too late for this to be helpful, but here is a Health Canada web page showing the "official method" for "Determination of the Disintegration Time of Tablets" http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodphar ... com_e.html
They use a simulated gastric fluid with a concentration of HCl = 0.1 molar (or pH of approximately 1). If you do a search for "simulated gastric fluid" you will see that this value is fairly typical.
I don't think you should use a solution with greater than 0.1 molar HCl (pH<1) because it would pose unnecessary hazards, and as far as I have read, it is not a realistic representation of human gastric fluids. As zzzdoc said earlier, a pH of 2-4 (0.01 to 0.0001 molar) should be fine.
Great find. Really interesting. Hopefully Hayam can incorporate parts of the procedure in his final procedure when he conducts his experiment.
The upshots were:
1.) 37 degrees C
2.) 0.1M HCL
3.) The definition of dissolved is when any residue, except fragments of insoluble coating, remaining on the screen is a soft mass having no palpably firm core ( kind of a touchy/feely end point, if you ask me.)
By the way, I'm a girl... Hehehehe... it's ok Hayam Hamodat is not a very common name. But it would be better for you to know that i'm a girl!
I handed in my proposal! I asked my teacher a few questions and she said that i need adult supervision durin the whole experiment (my parents) and she doesn't know where I can get a magnetic stirrer! That's the only problem: I'm worried about the filler and the magnetic stirrer- however she did say to stir it but that might not be that accurate. So do you know anyone I can contact that can let me borrow a magnetic stirrer?
ok so the HCl that i have is a 2 molar. Our stomach = 0.1 Molar of HCl. 0.1 molar= 1 pH. So am I right when I said to dilute it by adding 125 ml of HCl to 175 ml of water? Some one said that our stomach= 1 molar so I'm starting to get confused again. I only need to add the HCl to 175 ml of water?
Final statements:
1. Our stomach = 0. Molar of HCl
2. 0.1 molar= 1 pH
3. Our stomach has a pH of 1-4
4. Our stomach is half filled of HCl
5. I need to pour 125ml of HCl to 175 ml of Water.
6. Should the water be any special or does it not matter? By special i mean like distelled water or something like that.
1. Our stomach = 0. Molar of HCl
2. 0.1 molar= 1 pH
3. Our stomach has a pH of 1-4
4. Our stomach is half filled of HCl
5. I need to pour 125ml of HCl to 175 ml of Water.
6. Should the water be any special or does it not matter? By special i mean like distelled water or something like that.
Make that 0.1 molar in your first statement.
The stomach is not half filled with HCl. Sometimes it's empty (just before meals), sometimes it's full (just after meals). Basically, its contents change. That shouldn't matter. Just pick an appropriate volume and keep it constant.
Any water will do. No need to Perrier, or distilled water. That's not what most people drink, and the tiny ph differences will be dwarfed by the addition of the acid.
Another option would be to use a different type of stirrer/ mixer/ agitator. A low speed electric mixer could probably be adapted to do the job. Incidentally, if you look at the Health Canada page, you'll see that they do not use a magnetic stirrer for their official procedure. You could try to construct a simple apparatus that is similar to the one they use.
I read the "how to make a magnetic stirrer" and I think that it's so confusing! I don't understand it and it seems very complicated! I searched it on google and nothing simpler came up! So i'm still stuck! I asked my teacher if I can use a blender and she said that will just grind the pill and our stomach does not do that. I guess I will just end up using a spoon and stirring! It might not be the best choice but it's the only choice. Oh and that's ok zzzzdoc- i don't expect many people to know my gender from my name!
hhamodat wrote:I read the "how to make a magnetic stirrer" and I think that it's so confusing! I don't understand it and it seems very complicated! I searched it on google and nothing simpler came up! So i'm still stuck! I asked my teacher if I can use a blender and she said that will just grind the pill and our stomach does not do that. I guess I will just end up using a spoon and stirring! It might not be the best choice but it's the only choice. Oh and that's ok zzzzdoc- i don't expect many people to know my gender from my name!
Hayam,
No one at your school has a hot plate/ stir plate? Most chemistry labs should have one, and I am sure they would let you work in lab after school or on the weekend if it were for a science fair project.
Ideally, you don't want just a stir plate, like what the instructions are for, because you want to heat it too. You want a device that does both stir and heat. These are quite expensive.
A blender seems a really bad idea to me, since the acid and metal may react, plus there is a lot of splashing.
I do know that we have a hot plate and a bunsen burner in our school lab because my teacher showed it to us. However, when I asked her for a magnetic stirrer she did not suggest to use a hot plate. Does a hot plate stir as well? If so- that would be great! Then I can use that! Now I don't have much to worry about but I didn't finish contacting all the compaines of the pills so I'll get to that! Thanks so much everyone!
Oh I forgot to mention that our hot plate is not a hot plate stirrer! so i guess it only heats not stirs... but is it possible to add a stir bar in it? If so where can I get a stir bar?
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so i guess it only heats not stirs... but is it possible to add a stir bar in it? If so where can I get a stir bar?