Biological Age or a Phone?

[L_MJH4]

I need the idea of a project having to do with Biological age. I really need a good idea, since I want to win the competition. The problem is I can't find anything anywhere. Everything is either too childish or for bigger classes. If there is any better idea please tell me. I'm in grade 8 if it helps.

I also have an idea which is inventing a phone so that when you talk the people around you will not be able to listen what your saying. Please, is there anyway of doing this? Is it already invented? What's the level of this project? How do I do it?

Which of the above is better? PLEASE HELP ME, I don't have much time, PLEASE.

[deleted-71576]

First, a suggestion. Have you tried the topic selection section of the web site for ideas? This really has to come from you. It has to be something you really like, and are really interested. Your energy will show through in the end result.

I'll skip the first topic for now. The second topic is interesting, but I'm not sure possible for an 8th grader, without significant adult help. On the other hand, if you could pull it off, it could be a fun, interesting project.

Way before you were born, there was a show on TV called Get Smart. There was a running joke about secret conversations that needed to be had between the Chief and Agent 86 (Smart). They would go into the Cone of Silence. It was this huge, unwieldly apparatus. The common theme whenever they used it was that it never worked, and they wound up shouting at each other. I've looked before. There are a few pictures of it on the Web.

People used to be able to talk on the phone privately. We called this phone booths. Now with everyone having cell phones, and shouting into them in restaurants and movie theaters, I miss phone booths.

Do a google search on "Cone of Silence" and "Noise Cancellation" for starters.

But first I'd spend more time researching possible topics if either of those isn't really interesting to you.

[deleted-71576]

Ah, here it is. The Cone of Silence. You might not recognise it, but the experts on the forum are probably cracking up right now.

[L_MJH4]

So, ok. I appreciate the help and I guess I should follow what you told me to do. But no matter how much I search, it seems that I'll never find an idea for my project!!! I searched and searched, and everything is either already done in my school, or either too childish. I want a winning idea, something good. Anyone has got any ideas? Please, I really need one.

[deleted-71447]

Hi L_MJH4,
Welcome to Science Buddies. As zzzzdoc said, it would not be helpful for someone here to give you ideas for a project without knowing anything about your interests. If you can give us more information, I expect that someone can help you find a good project. Which of the topics in the topic selection wizard sounded most interesting to you? What are your hobbies? For now, please don't worry about what other people have done at your school. There are plenty of opportunities to adapt previous experiments to develop new and challenging projects.

[L_MJH4]

That's right... I mean, what's the deal of doing a project if it's not your choice... Well, I mostly like the topics which include inventing something new which everyone will like or use at home. Something else with be something close to my first topic, Biological age... I guess I've got to give up that for a project, but it seems that if I do it right, it'll come out being a nice project. I just want something good

[deleted-2131]

To be honest with you, there are very few "good" or "bad" ideas. The "goodness" of an idea is so qualitative that it doesn't really make sense to evaluate it.

The judges don't have pre-defined defintions of "good" project ideas. It is how you do the project, not nessecarily what you do. That really matters.

[L_MJH4]

Well yea, afterall it's how you do your project that matters. But the problem is finding out something that works and that can be developed, and I guess that no one wants a project which is not creative...

[Louise]

Well yea, afterall it's how you do your project that matters. But the problem is finding out something that works and that can be developed, and I guess that no one wants a project which is not creative...

We've had this discussion in other threads. You are not going to be doing original research at this level. No one expects that. The trick is to find a project you can put your own twist on and do it well. For example, in one of the other forums, a student was studying compounds fo antibacterial properties. Not new, not novel. But... [s]he tested compouds that were reported as having healing properties in his/her culture. This personal tie made the project very interesting and mae the student more passionate about the project. We cannot come up with this part. We don't know you.

Go through the topic selector and see what interests you. Post back here and explain why you think the project is too simple but why you like it, and we will try to help you make it a more advanced project.

You have to give us some idea of what projects you are interested in. Frankly, if I had a original and creative idea that I thought would be award winning I'd be doing it myself. I'm a scientist because I like doing research. It would be great if I won an award, but I didn't choose this career because I wanted a Nobel Prize. I like solving puzzles. There are particular questions about how things work that I love to think about. My work often a variation of something already done, but that doesn't mean that it does not help answer the question.

So why is biological age interesting to you? What question excites you?

Louise

[L_MJH4]

Well, I guess I'll take the test again and check out new ideas.
But, concerning Biological Age, I like this topic since it kind of helps people notice when to "get a grip"... what I mean is that if I come up choosing this topic, I'll mainly point out stress. Everyone gets under stress at some point, and that's exactly why I like this project, since it's applicable on anyone and at sometime, anyone might find it useful.

I'll check out the other topics when I have time and I'll post a new message about them.

Thank you all for the help

[L_MJH4]

I have been searching in this site and found this topic:
Taking Off on a Tangent

It seems interesting, although I've got no idea if it's something for my age and level. Anyway, I know I should not ask this but I wonder if anyone could give me an idea that will be for my level cause I don't even know what's for my level.

[deleted-71576]

Could you give us a link to that project? (Cut and paste it from the address bar on your browser)

If not, could you tell us where the topic is? Which field, which specific area, etc.

[Louise]

Could you give us a link to that project? (Cut and paste it from the address bar on your browser)

If not, could you tell us where the topic is? Which field, which specific area, etc.

It appears to be the science buddies project at:
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentorin ... p018.shtml

It is dificulty 8, which means it is average diffuculty for a high school (U.S. gr. 9-12) student.

It requires "You should either currently be taking or have already completed a first course in geometry. You must understand the concept and method of a mathematical proof."

To L_MJH4:

Also, it may not be appropriate for certain science fairs, since it does not require manipulation of dependent and independent variables, or a lot of data analysis. You might want to check the suitability with the teacher.

So, why is this interesting to you?
Louise

[L_MJH4]

Well alright, even though I already took one course of geometry and I understand the concept of prove, I'm making up my mind now; there's not much time for searching, and I guess I'll use the topic of biological age since as someone told me before, it's not the topic that's good, but how you do it. (Not only that, I actually like the topic, it's really handy)
Concerning this, I understand the idea of what biological age is and what the difference is between it and chronological age. But the problem is that online, I am not finding any articles which may help me explain it... perhaps there's another name for biological age? Is there anyway to calculate it?

[deleted-71576]

I'm not sure there is any real reputable science on the topic. Outside of people trying to sell you their books, or trying to get you to buy 1000's of vitamins and nutritional supplements, I'm not really aware of any decent research on the subject. There is lots of "research" out there, but not in good peer reviewed, reputable journals.

Now I am skeptical about this. And I am a practicing physician. One potential problem you could run into is a judge with a similar view of things. You don't want your project to be viewed as pseudoscience instead of science.

I just did a google search on biological age, and the first page of results are all dubious at best.

Now there are some true objective biological markers that may have a relationship to age, such as telemere length at the end of chromosomes. This may have a relationship to the incidence of osteoarthritis. There is an article in Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases that studied that. There are also longitudinal studies on groups of Mennonites in Kansas and Nebraska that were published 13 years ago. A well known univserity anesthesiologist in the Midwest has also published a recent best seller on the topic (not that this was original research, but a lot of people have bought his book.)

So there is some data out there, but understand that doing a project on this topic has issues associated with it.

I don't have any idea how you could relate "Stress" with biological vs. chronological age. How were you planning to do an experiment with this?

[L_MJH4]

My aim is to show how stress can make you older. For example, there's a difference between the stress a five year old has than a 15 year old teen has... between a 15 year old and a 20 year old... and so on...
But not always the chronological age is what matters, but also the environment you are living in. Perhaps your job is making you stressed, or your health is taking out some years from you, etc.
Any ideas or help?

[Louise]

My aim is to show how stress can make you older. For example, there's a difference between the stress a five year old has than a 15 year old teen has... between a 15 year old and a 20 year old... and so on...
But not always the chronological age is what matters, but also the environment you are living in. Perhaps your job is making you stressed, or your health is taking out some years from you, etc.
Any ideas or help?

I suggest you read zzzzdoc's post again. He is a medical doctor, and he is saying there isn't a lot of evidence for these claims.

Stress _can_ have a negative impact, and there are lots of studies that show that, especially in the short term (like perfomance on tests).

The idea that you can calculate a single number - say "real age" and have it be more accurate that chronological age is silly.

If you have ever taken one of those online quizes they calculate your age by comparing it to large population studies. For example, they start with your chronological age. Then they ask you a question- "do you smoke?" They say, well, there is a study that shows non-smokers live 5 years longer than smokers, so we will subtract 5 years. Then they ask you- "Do you wear a seat belt?" They subtract -0.5 years for that. But the smoking study and the seat belt study were not controlling for the same variables, so it isn't really valid to add the results. They call this number an age, but it is really just an aggregate number indicating your "healthiness". And there are no studies that suggest that these numbers are more valid at predicting how long you will live than anything else.

Life insurance companies have done the same thing for years... they have things called actuarial tables that predict how likely you will die at a given age. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_table
These tables work pretty well (otherwise insurance companies would go bankrupt) and they don't include stress. Age, gender, smoking habits are some of the most important factors.

Even if this had more scientific support, how could you possibile test this? It isn't really feasible for you to do a large population study. You cannot do a study for the life of people to see if stressed people die early.

If you are interested in stress, why don't you do something simpler? Have people measure their heart rate. Give half of them a math test (and tell them the top scoring person will get a nice prize to get them anxious) and then measure the heart rate. Let the other half do something relaxing like mediate and then measure their heart rate.

Note: Using humans in science fair projects requires a lot of paperwork, and getting approval from your teacher or science fair review panel AND informed consent from all participants. Additionally, you will have to test large numbers of people to get signifcant data, since there is a lot of variability in heart rates of people.

Louise

[deleted-71576]

My aim is to show how stress can make you older. For example, there's a difference between the stress a five year old has than a 15 year old teen has... between a 15 year old and a 20 year old... and so on...
But not always the chronological age is what matters, but also the environment you are living in. Perhaps your job is making you stressed, or your health is taking out some years from you, etc.
Any ideas or help?

Does a 5 year old with leukemia have less stress than a 15 yo perfectly healthy teenager? How about an apparently healthy looking 20 yo who has Huntington's disease but doesn't know it yet. Their life span will be dramatically decreased, but it will be another 10 years until symptoms start to appear.

I could go on and on with examples. There are way too many variables. Too many unknowns.

How does someone's biological age change the second after they walk in front of a bus? They might have had a stress free, non-smoking, exercise fanatic life. But the bus had other ideas. Karma is a, well you know.

Louise and I are trying to tell you that you are interested in a topic that will be very difficult at best to make into a science fair project. We hate discouraging people, but I think we'd be more upset if you spent a huge amount of time just to have your science teacher shoot down your idea and require you to start over at the beginning.

This topic could keep a researcher busy for their entire career. And at the end, they might have nothing to show for it.

Have you discussed this with your science teacher? What did they say about the feasibility of doing this project?

[L_MJH4]

sorry I did a mistake and added a new post, if you want to see the continuation, its the post ":S". sorry I did this mistake!

[deleted-71588]

I myself agree with you (btw, I really appreciate your help! ) but I really dont know where to get an idea. My teacher told me I can't repeat projects others have done and also told me that I can neither "improve them". All of the projects I've found here are either too difficult for my level or already done, or I don't like them.

sorry about this, I pressed the wrong button, anyway this is the continuation of the other post, "Biological age or a phone?"

If you are really understood and are accurately representing what an 8th grade science teacher thinks, the teacher has a real problem with what engineers do for a living because we spend a lot of time and effort trying to improve processes, materials, methodologies, etc. Sorry, bad attitude on my part won't help...

There is a fine line difference between doing precisely what somebody else did (and there is merit in this if you are trying to confirm somebody's research), and altering it in some simple way to find out something slightly different.

Lets try to go at this from a different approach, tell us which projects that you saw and liked that you thought you could do (but thought you couldn't use because they were already done)!

There are some real creative experts here in many fields that can assist you in altering a project in some novel ways. Give us a clue and let us help!

[Louise]

I myself agree with you (btw, I really appreciate your help! ) but I really dont know where to get an idea. My teacher told me I can't repeat projects others have done and also told me that I can neither "improve them". All of the projects I've found here are either too difficult for my level or already done, or I don't like them.

sorry about this, I pressed the wrong button, anyway this is the continuation of the other post, "Biological age or a phone?"

If you are really understood and are accurately representing what an 8th grade science teacher thinks, the teacher has a real problem with what engineers do for a living because we spend a lot of time and effort trying to improve processes, materials, methodologies, etc. Sorry, bad attitude on my part won't help...

There is a fine line difference between doing precisely what somebody else did (and there is merit in this if you are trying to confirm somebody's research), and altering it in some simple way to find out something slightly different.

Lets try to go at this from a different approach, tell us which projects that you saw and liked that you thought you could do (but thought you couldn't use because they were already done)!

There are some real creative experts here in many fields that can assist you in altering a project in some novel ways. Give us a clue and let us help!

I have to agree with Craig- I was shocked to see what your teacher said. But I think we have had this conversation about creativity in science before in this thread, so I am wondering if your own impressions of how science should be is leading you to misunderstand what your teacher said. I'm a professional scientist. I also think that I am a creative scientist. But _everything_ I do is based on someone elses experiments. I modify them, I apply them to a different system, I look at the data in a new way.

As for the second part, we've asked about this before too and made the same offer to help modify projects. The only project you mentioned was the geometrical proof, which we talked about. Then you went back to biological age and stress. I made some suggestions in the my last reply about how you could test heart rates and stress. Again, that will require approval from the teacher. You could also test something with plants- physical stresses like too cold or too hot or not enough of a nutrient.


Louise




Louise

[deleted-71576]

Let me chime in as someone is who is also aghast at those comments.

We would love to help you make your project a success. And yes, often the topic is the hardest part. But, as they say, the journey of 100 miles starts with one step.

Tell us about what in science interests you. Which science projects you thought were neet.

My kids have come up with some really screwball topics in their time. Some were too crazy to do. But some turned out amazing. Just look around at every day life and see what interests you. I'm sure there are many projects out there for you.

[deleted-71576]

I'm already cutting corners. The journey used to be 1000 miles. Oh well, inflation.

[L_MJH4]

Well... At school my favorite subject is definetly Math. I love the idea of expanding a problem, connecting its ideas and turning it into a simple and true statement. (This mostly goes for geometry!) I also like sciences, (especially chemistry). I love science since it makes me understand why life is as it is and why it can't be different.
Besides, I like the idea of inventing new things that will be helpful for anyone. it'll be great if someone comes up saying, wow that will actually come in handy! (well this is not necessary anyway:P)

Btw, when I said "improve" I meant improve the projects done by others [b]the same year [/b] , I myself understood the samething you did, but then I was explained that it wasnt like that. Srry for the mistake, and thanks to everyone again!

[Louise]

Well... At school my favorite subject is definetly Math. I love the idea of expanding a problem, connecting its ideas and turning it into a simple and true statement. (This mostly goes for geometry!) I also like sciences, (especially chemistry). I love science since it makes me understand why life is as it is and why it can't be different.
Besides, I like the idea of inventing new things that will be helpful for anyone. it'll be great if someone comes up saying, wow that will actually come in handy! (well this is not necessary anyway:P)

Btw, when I said "improve" I meant improve the projects done by others the same year , I myself understood the samething you did, but then I was explained that it wasnt like that. Srry for the mistake, and thanks to everyone again!

You really have to be way more specific here if you want help. I like math and science doesn't narrow things down.

Are math projects allowed for your science fair? You picked out a math project, and I told you to double check if it was okay. Have you done this?

Louise

[L_MJH4]

I read a book with several science fair projects and one of the projects that I liked was about alcohol, making home wastes useful. If I'm not mistaken, it's about converting alcohol into fuel.
I also read another project about how to make the life span of a soap longer.
I also read about another porject of how to do a stereoscopic microscope.

Are these good projects? Are they for my level?
thanks again for the help

[deleted-71447]

Any of those could be fine for you, as long as you can come up with some testable hypothesis that relates to scientific principals, and as long as you can collect some data to test your hypothesis. Which project sounds the most interesting & fun to you?

[L_MJH4]

I feel that the project about the life span of a soap is sort of.. well not for my age. Perhaps I'm mistaken, perhaps not. The one about stereoscopic microscope and the one about the alcohol seem great, but I thought they're too advanced, but I guess I was mistaken. First, I'll read the materials again and read the procedure again before making up my mind.