recording on a wire(can't get it to record) due 2/24!!!

[gregunit123]

I have tried many things to try to get my wire recorder to record. I have used 2 types of wires and even casesttee tape to record on to and play off of, and I wrapped the magnet wire 220 times the first time and 440 (since my ferrite bead is double the size of the one on your website) and I still haven't been able to get sound to record or play. I need to give my lab report by this friday the 24th and I hope you can answer me asap. thank you so much for your time andd help.[/img]

[deleted-2574]

Hi Greg,

I don't have your answer or know a reference for your answer. Some thoughts are:

I read through the experiment at https://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentorin ... l?from=TSW , the following two steps seemed to need extra attention:

1. Mechanics, Step 7a: Use a square knot

2. Recording and Playback, Step 1: Erase any previous recording on the wire with a permanent magnet.

Have you checked these two?

[gregunit123]

I have tried many things to try to get my wire recorder to record. I have used 2 types of wires and even casesttee tape to record on to and play off of, and I wrapped the magnet wire 220 times the first time and 440 (since my ferrite bead is double the size of the one on your website) and I still haven't been able to get sound to record or play. I need to give my lab report by this friday the 24th and I hope you can answer me asap. thank you so much for your time andd help.[/img]

I left my ferrite bead sitting on a piece of wood and the magnet wire is also touching the wood, instead of holding it up with a clamp, could that be an issue? I'm going to try and test it with it held above the ground.

[Louise]

I have tried many things to try to get my wire recorder to record. I have used 2 types of wires and even casesttee tape to record on to and play off of, and I wrapped the magnet wire 220 times the first time and 440 (since my ferrite bead is double the size of the one on your website) and I still haven't been able to get sound to record or play. I need to give my lab report by this friday the 24th and I hope you can answer me asap. thank you so much for your time andd help.[/img]

I left my ferrite bead sitting on a piece of wood and the magnet wire is also touching the wood, instead of holding it up with a clamp, could that be an issue? I'm going to try and test it with it held above the ground.

I don't think that should be a problem. Wood is not a conductor, so I don't think you should have any conduction through it.


Louise

[gregunit123]

that's not what i mean,i guess my real question is if the ferrite bead needs to be suspended in the air, because my magnet wire might be cut off because it is squished between the ferrite bead and the wood.,.,,. is that a problem?

[Louise]

that's not what i mean,i guess my real question is if the ferrite bead needs to be suspended in the air, because my magnet wire might be cut off because it is squished between the ferrite bead and the wood.,.,,. is that a problem?

The wire and the bead should not touch, I think. Are they?

Louise

[Louise]

that's not what i mean,i guess my real question is if the ferrite bead needs to be suspended in the air, because my magnet wire might be cut off because it is squished between the ferrite bead and the wood.,.,,. is that a problem?

The wire and the bead should not touch, I think. Are they?

Louise

I thought that the wire was passed close to, but not touching the ferrite bead. Looking at the picture, I cannot tell for sure.

Here is a website that might help. If I find anything better, I will let you know. It claims that a recorder like this is too hard to build from scratch, but that is incorrect- I have found several pages from people who have built there own, I just cannot find instructions or good pictures.


http://www.jce.divched.org/Journal/Issu ... 3p0590.pdf

Louise

[deleted-2574]

Hi Louise,

When I try to access:

http://www.jce.divched.org/Journal/Issu ... 3p0590.pdf

I get the error message, "To view this page, you need to log in to area “JCE Subscribers� on http://www.jce.divched.org. The web page then asks for a Name and Password (which can be remembered).

Can you please summarize the reference or provide an alternate? Thanks.

[Louise]

Hi Louise,

When I try to access:

http://www.jce.divched.org/Journal/Issu ... 3p0590.pdf

I get the error message, "To view this page, you need to log in to area “JCE Subscribers� on http://www.jce.divched.org. The web page then asks for a Name and Password (which can be remembered).

Can you please summarize the reference or provide an alternate? Thanks.

Sorry- I posted while I was at school, and I guess my university has a subscription based on IP address. I will look at it tomorrow morning and post a summary. It was about troubleshooting actual commerical wire recorders... written by/for collectors of wire recordings and players, so it had some details about failed playback. However, it wasn't concerned with home built recorders.

I was unable to find anything other than this source, so I have no alternative.

[Louise]

Hi Louise,

When I try to access:

http://www.jce.divched.org/Journal/Issu ... 3p0590.pdf

I get the error message, "To view this page, you need to log in to area “JCE Subscribers� on http://www.jce.divched.org. The web page then asks for a Name and Password (which can be remembered).

Can you please summarize the reference or provide an alternate? Thanks.

Sorry- I posted while I was at school, and I guess my university has a subscription based on IP address. I will look at it tomorrow morning and post a summary. It was about troubleshooting actual commerical wire recorders... written by/for collectors of wire recordings and players, so it had some details about failed playback. However, it wasn't concerned with home built recorders.

I was unable to find anything other than this source, so I have no alternative.

Even better- that was the wrong link. I didn't think the journal of chemical education would care about recordings...

http://depts.washington.edu/ethmusic/wire1.html

It does have a bibliography, though the most useful looking references are from old magazines (1940s and 50s) which might be hard to get.

Louise

[Louise]

that's not what i mean,i guess my real question is if the ferrite bead needs to be suspended in the air, because my magnet wire might be cut off because it is squished between the ferrite bead and the wood.,.,,. is that a problem?

The wire and the bead should not touch, I think. Are they?

Louise

Okay, I think for this application they should touch. For a harddisk, they do not touch. The article that I link to suggests cleaning the gap so I suggests you try that first.


Louise

[deleted-71588]

The field effects fall off as the square of the distance between the recording media and the "head gap". In this experiment, you want them touching.

[gregunit123]

The field effects fall off as the square of the distance between the recording media and the "head gap". In this experiment, you want them touching.

My ferrite bead is a whole inch tall and at least 1/2 an inch wide, that is much bigger than the diagram, is that a problem? Should I maybe reduce the number of coils of the magnet wire or coil it more times? I'm really frustrated that there's no data for my science fair project due this friday, is there anything you suggest I say on my lab report or to my teacher? I'm really still hoping that I can get it to work, but I need a back-up plan because its due in 2 days.


ps. the website has some stuff on it that i'm going to try, thanks!!!!

[gregunit123]

dO YOU THINK THIS WEBSITE would be a good place for me to contact, they have a phone number on the bottom 207-832-5064?

http://www.videointerchange.com/wire_recorder1.htm

[Louise]

dO YOU THINK THIS WEBSITE would be a good place for me to contact, they have a phone number on the bottom 207-832-5064?

http://www.videointerchange.com/wire_recorder1.htm

It seems like they are very well informed, but they are a business. My guess is if you call them, they won't help you. However, since no one here seems to be able to help, I think you have nothing to lose. Check with your parents first.

To maximize the odds of getting help, be very polite and as brief as possible. Explain that you are building a wire recorder and you are looking for some advice. Ask if they know any good resources. Then ask a few specific questions- like your ferrite bead size question. Thank them whether they are helpful or not.

Louise

[deleted-71588]

My ferrite bead is a whole inch tall and at least 1/2 an inch wide, that is much bigger than the diagram, is that a problem?

YES, THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM. The more ferrite material you have to magnetize, the more energy it takes. For recording, you can overcome that. For playback, it isn't possible.

You didn't mention any core "gap". Modern recording heads utilize a small gap. Think of it like the difference between a "C" and an "O". If you wrap wire torroidally around a "C", the induced magnetic field density is stronger at the gap. Modern recording and playback heads utilize this to obtain a "gain". Techniques for manufacturing a controlled gap "C" style head was something that wasn't available when the wire recorders were novelties.

With the "O" style ferrite cores for wire recording, you want something tall enough so that the wire can be kept on its surface, but short enough so that the field strength of the "fringe" field is high enough to magnetize the wire. A "fringe" area is often described as the magnetic flux lines that just beyond a material boundary.

The physics involved in this experiment is fairly complex stuff when you look at everything involved.

[Louise]

My ferrite bead is a whole inch tall and at least 1/2 an inch wide, that is much bigger than the diagram, is that a problem?

YES, THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM. The more ferrite material you have to magnetize, the more energy it takes. For recording, you can overcome that. For playback, it isn't possible.

You didn't mention any core "gap". Modern recording heads utilize a small gap. Think of it like the difference between a "C" and an "O". If you wrap wire torroidally around a "C", the induced magnetic field density is stronger at the gap. Modern recording and playback heads utilize this to obtain a "gain". Techniques for manufacturing a controlled gap "C" style head was something that wasn't available when the wire recorders were novelties.

With the "O" style ferrite cores for wire recording, you want something tall enough so that the wire can be kept on its surface, but short enough so that the field strength of the "fringe" field is high enough to magnetize the wire. A "fringe" area is often described as the magnetic flux lines that just beyond a material boundary.

The physics involved in this experiment is fairly complex stuff when you look at everything involved.

I believe the protocol does involve a gap, though there are not specifications for the size of the gap.